• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

Status
Not open for further replies.
If there were a spinoff show announced after Voyager got home, about Captain Chakotay, with Paris and Kim and an otherwise all new crew (and thus missing some important characters on your list), would you have tuned in?

No! I'm afraid not. Chakotay by himself (meaning without Janeway and the rest of the gang) simply isn't interesting enough for me. I love Tom Paris, but a show about him...don't think so. I'm not interested in Tom Paris himself, I'm interested in how he interacts with Janeway and B'Elanna etc.

I'm not interested in strangers so I'd say no to a show that centered on any of them on their own.

I've said it many times now - what I'm passionate about is Voyager and the spirit of the show, the interaction between the characters I care about - not some strangers.

Why you'd think up strangers when you've got an already established crew and a fanbase for that is beyond me, but then I'm not you and you're not me, and since we obviously do not agree...fine with me.

...Janeway (at least once she dies, which is something like halfway or more through the first book). If you don't think of it as "Voyager", but as a separate story utilizing some of the characters you like, does that make it appealing?

I think, I've already answered this - many many many times. NO! I DO think of it as Voyager.

Granted, Janeway is dead...

Exactly!!!

..and that's the kind of thing that could clearly piss anyone off well enough to make them avoid a show like that, but assume for a moment Janeway wasn't dead, but just wasn't going to make any appearances. Would you be interested?

Again...NO!! I've said it...how many times now? I'm interested in Janeway, her feelings, her worries, what makes her happy, what makes her sad...and of course her interaction with the other characters on the show that I - yes I - consider essential.

I'm NOT interested in a book where she doesnt appear much. Why do you think I stopped reading? ;)

I like happy endings and so I do dislike her death, but I don't stop reading because I'm pissed, I stop reading because I don't like what I read and get bored.
 
Ok, cool. I was just curious. For me, any time I've loved a show enough to really care about it, I've ended up loving most of the characters, writers, and sometimes even actors enough that I'll try out just about anything new that they participate in. Often I won't like it and I'll stop, but if I'm interested in one context, I assume there's a reasonable chance I'll be interested in another. But if the particular spirit of this particular group is what interests you, and you're positive that nothing else similar will interest you, and you're sure to the point where you don't want to try, then that's your opinion and as much as I disagree, I don't have any problem with it.
 
Last edited:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there hasn't been a real appearance of Janeway in the time between Distant Shores and Resistance. That's about two years, and I don't think Pocket was hit too hard by the lack of revenue from Janeway-only fans. This is not said to dissuade you from exercising your freedom to ignore Voyager books in which Janeway is not alive 100% of the time. I am merely pointing out that choosing not to purchase those books will likely not affect anyone but you.

I've yet to hear a compelling argument for why a book set between Nemesis and Before Dishonor could not accomplish the same things for Janeway that a book set after Before Dishonor with a living Janeway could. Data has been successfully used in The Buried Age and The Sky's the Limit, among other books. Chewbacca has been used well in Allegiance and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Why can't a pre-death Janeway be as effective or better?

I don't think Janeway's situation is too dissimilar from what happened in the second season of Babyolon 5. Sinclair, the leading character, was written out of the show. We later see him go back in time to live and die in the past. The show not only survived with a new lead, but it thrived. There will always be those who refuse to accept a Bablyon 5 without Sinclair, but for those who are the least bit open to the idea of someone new in charge, they will find a series that soared to new heights.

No matter what the editors say now, there are always possibilities for the future. My prediction is that we will see Janeway in the "current" Voyager stories by 2015, the 20th anniversary year of the show. Whether that is in flesh and blood form, a spirit, a Q representative, or something vastly different, I cannot begin to say, but I do believe that some bright mind will come up with a great idea and convince the other people in charge to make it happen.
 
As someone who is only now getting back into reading the novels, I figured I'd throw in my two cents.

As background, Voyager was my favorite series and, despite random flirtations with other series, it continues to be my favorite- if for no other reason than it was what I grew up with. I started watching Star Trek as a wee lad with TNG, but it was not until Voyager came onto the scene that I was old enough to care about more than how space ships were cool, and the drama of Deep Space Nine was too serious for my interest. For six or seven years, the drama of whether or not the 7:00 Saturday showing would be pre-empted by Indians baseball was my life. Consequently, Janeway was my captain, in much the same way people say, "____ was my Doctor".

I quickly latched onto the various Voyager novels being pumped out at the time, back when they were still numbered. I loved them, but after a few years began to sense a pattern to them, and was turned off by something I couldn't quite figure out, which I later realized was the reset button.

I love stories that reference each other, where something that happens in one can affect the other- apparently, I always have, because I remember loving how the first three Starfleet Academy novels shared continuity, and I hated the lack of connections between the two Geordi books. However, at the end of Capture the Flag, Boothby tells Geordi he'll tell him about Cadet Picard one day, which, since I read the Picard book first, I thought of as a connection at the time, and I ate it up. Later, in the aftermath of Generations, all the different stories that began with Veridian III and led to the Enterprise E in different ways bugged the hell out of me (The Return and Ship of the Line, I'm looking at you). In the end, I lost interest in Star Trek novels, although the occasional SCE, Eugenics Wars, or Voyager Relaunch book found its way into my hands, usually through the library. And, while it was rare that I read Star Wars due to a lack of interest, I admired the Expanded Universe's ability to share a continuity, and hearing that they killed Chewie showed anything could happen.

Flash forward to 2008. I'm lurking on the SCN message board and reading about Destiny, where I learn that many storylines had combined into a shared continuity. I'm intrigued. I then hear about Before Dishonor, and that Janeway becomes the Borg Queen. Boo. After those Christie Golden VOY relaunch books, where the only good thing was that at least Chakotay still would be commanding Voyager when Janeway was removed as according to Nemesis, I don't want to hear anything about the damn Borg queen again.

But then I read further: Janeway dies, going out defiantly and headstrong (one of her best traits, IMO) taking out her mortal enemies. She's dead. Dead as a doornail. A memorial with an eternal flame is place in memory of her on Earth and, from now on, she'll be gone, and Voyager (especially Chakotay, who finally got with Janeway at the end of the second relaunch book) will have to deal with the loss.

Wow. Wow. I'm blown away. Suddenly, it seems the Star Trek novel universe is one where anything can happen. And, while saddened that MY captain is gone, I'm satisfied, and looking forward to Destiny.

All of you who are understandably angered at her death are proof of those readers this death may have caused Pocket Books. I'm proof of those they've gained, even among those of us who love and care about Captain Janeway.

You can't please everyone, you can only tell the story you think is best, no matter what others think, because there will always be those who disagree.

Well said.
 
Out of curiosity, would it be an issue if Lynx had gone to these other boards (whatever or whereever they are) and said: "I think [this] is the greatest thing any ST book has ever done. A lot of people are talking about it at TrekBBS - want to come over and join us?"


Trust me when I say this: I could, if pressed, gather together dozens of people or so that hate Janeway and are glad that she's dead, from various other message boards, without trying very hard. Such an action would turn threads like these into even more of a warzone than they currently are. I've chosen not to do so, because I like this board and wouldn't conceive of creating such an environment. And as much as (Insert name of poster who did what I'm talking about except that he grabbed people that are going to tell us what for about how Janeway's death is a huge mistake and maybe bring up bullshit about sexism here) is likining the atention and support he's getting, it's just kind of sad, really.
 
were you asked to come here? because I find it odd that in the span of about a week, we seem to have gained a number of new posters who all have popped up with the same point.
There's nothing hidden here. Lynx told us he knew "lots" of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads.

Please don't accuse me of things I haven't done.

I have mentioned that Janeway is permanently killed off on some two forums, the startrek.com forum and another forum where there are many Janeway fans among the regular posters.

But I haven't mentioned the TrekBBS and the debate which is going on here.

I only mentioned that I was involved in a debate about this on a forum, nothing more.

So don't accuse me for dragging in new posters or mobilizing some "army" in this case.

I'm actually a bit tired of constantly seeing my comments in this thread being turned to something worse than they were meant to be.
 
just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

I find it odd that approx. a year and a half later there's this vocal backlash (AFAIK by a loud \ outspoken minority)... Did no one care back in 2007? :rolleyes:
 
just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

I find it odd that approx. a year and a half later there's this vocal backlash (AFAIK by a loud \ outspoken minority)... Did no one care back in 2007? :rolleyes:

Obviously not, because most of the Janeway fans thought that she was just teporarily killed off, that Q would bring her back to life and that she would return in the next Voyager book.
 
just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

I find it odd that approx. a year and a half later there's this vocal backlash (AFAIK by a loud \ outspoken minority)... Did no one care back in 2007? :rolleyes:

not that i recall. IIIRC, most of the backlash seemed centred on the ludicrousness of the Borg cube eating Pluto, the mischaracterisations of Kadohata, Leybenzon and T'lana including an arguement over the rightness of the mutiny, and the 'inapproriate' humour.
 
But you can't change it. You really can't. So just spend your time loving the stories that work for you, and singing their praises as loud as you can, because I really think that all that's left on the other side is wallowing in pointless recrimination that accomplishes nothing.

But you can change it Thrawn, fans can change things. I've been a trek fan since I was 19 years old, in 1966. I saw the very first episode of the original series the very first time it aired. I've been hooked ever since. When the original series was slated to be canceled after the second season a lot of fans sent letters to NBC in protest. Trek got renewed for one more year. Now you may ask just what did one year get us.

One more year made the series viable for syndication, one more year only added to the fan base. The year after the series was canceled NBC switched to a demographics rating system. They discovered that had canceled a very successful show.

From that one more year, and the new fans made because now it had better time slots, came the fan fiction writers, the fanzine publishers, the animated series and finally conventions. I was actually setting in a audience and heard Gene Roddenberry announce that a movie would be made.

The movies spawned a new TV series and that another and another. All this was possible because some fans though that they could make a difference, I was one of those fans who wrote a letter forty years ago, and we did get something done.

So we are here, and we are writing letters and we are staying because bringing back Kathryn Janeway is the right thing to do.

Brit

Here I agree. It is possible to change things if you speak out about what is wrong. I've always thought that it's every persons duty to put down the foot and say "No!" when something is wrong or when the development goes in the wrong direction. Remember that those who makes history are those who have the guts to stand up for what they think is right.

The history of Star trek is a brilliant example of how something could live on, prosper and develope to something even better and bigger thanks to ardent fans who dared to stand up for what they liked and wanted.

Gorf wrote:
No! I'm afraid not. Chakotay by himself (meaning without Janeway and the rest of the gang) simply isn't interesting enough for me. I love Tom Paris, but a show about him...don't think so. I'm not interested in Tom Paris himself, I'm interested in how he interacts with Janeway and B'Elanna etc.

I'm not interested in strangers so I'd say no to a show that centered on any of them on their own.

I've said it many times now - what I'm passionate about is Voyager and the spirit of the show, the interaction between the characters I care about - not some strangers.

Why you'd think up strangers when you've got an already established crew and a fanbase for that is beyond me, but then I'm not you and you're not me, and since we obviously do not agree...fine with me.

Here I totally agree as well. Chakotay is my second favorite character after Kes (Janeway is third, believe it or not) but I'm not too happy over the current scenario in the Voyager books with only Chakotay and Kim left on the ship of the original crew. To be honest, I thought that the scenario in the books with the split-up crew and with Kes and Neelix missing was bad as it was but I could accept it because I thought that "well, we do at least have a Voyager relaunch and there's always the possibility to bring back the old crew in some way". It has actually affected my writing as well because I've been toying with two scenarios, one was to write stories adapted to the events in the "relaunch" and the other was to simply bring the old favorites together for new adventures in the Delta Quadrant or Andromeda galaxy.

The killing off of Janeway has actually changed the scenario from bad (or at least acceptable) to worse and unacceptable because now they have started to kill off the old favorites. No chance to read about them in the upcoming books, every hope to have some interaction between them, even if only temporarily is gone. Not to mention that there wasn't any acceptable reason to do it either. Sorry, I don't accept the comments that killing off Janeway would make a great story. There could be many more great stories if the character had remained in the books.

Not to mention that the Pandora's Box is now open for more character destruction. Who will be the next to be killed off?
 
I would love to buy the Trek editor, who had the final say on Janeway, a beer. Haven't seen a thread this interesting in a long time. Who knew killing a character would completely twist so many people into knots.
 
So don't accuse me for dragging in new posters or mobilizing some "army" in this case.

I didn't. I said, "Lynx told us he knew 'lots' of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads."

And that's exactly what you just quoted. When did I mention "dragging in new posters or mobilizing some 'army'..."?
 
just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

Some didn't notice because they chose to read and write free online fanfic instead of buying and reading licensed tie-in novels.
 
So don't accuse me for dragging in new posters or mobilizing some "army" in this case.

I didn't. I said, "Lynx told us he knew 'lots' of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads."

And that's exactly what you just quoted. When did I mention "dragging in new posters or mobilizing some 'army'..."?

What I'm referring to is that another poster is mentioning new posters suddenly popping up on this forum, apparently referring to newcomers who oppose the decision to kill off Janeway and you write that I was informing lots of Janeway fans of these threads. One may get the impression that I'm rallying Janeway fans from all over the net to start posting in this debate while the truth is that I haven't mentioned the TrekBBS on the two forums I've mentioned this debate. I just want to state this to avoid speculation of rallying fans in this matter.

I avoided mentioning the TrekBBS in those posts on other forums because I didn't want to be accused of bringing in angry Janeway fans to support me.

My only rreason for bringing this up on other forums was because some posters stated that fans in general didn't care about Janeway being killed off or not. Since many Janeway fans didn't know that the decision was to kill her off permanently, I decided to bring this up on some other forums because I wanted to see if they did care or not, and yes they did care.

But I didn't mention the TrekBBS in those posts.

Some didn't notice because they chose to read and write free online fanfic instead of buying and reading licensed tie-in novels.

Have you ever wondered why so many fans choose to write and read fan-fiction instead of reading the books?

As for noticing that Janeway was killed off, many Janeway fans did notice but they could never imagine that the character was killed off permanently.
 
:lol:

Lynx, you really think reversing a decision to kill a fictional character is "making history"? I mean, if this is your definition of "standing up for what's right", I think you have a vastly overinflated idea of Star Trek's importance to the world.

Plus, it's art. There is no "right" and "wrong", just questions of personal taste. And I happen to like this change, and rather resent you telling me that by preferring the stories I prefer I'm doing something morally wrong.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there hasn't been a real appearance of Janeway in the time between Distant Shores and Resistance. That's about two years, and I don't think Pocket was hit too hard by the lack of revenue from Janeway-only fans. This is not said to dissuade you from exercising your freedom to ignore Voyager books in which Janeway is not alive 100% of the time. I am merely pointing out that choosing not to purchase those books will likely not affect anyone but you.

I've yet to hear a compelling argument for why a book set between Nemesis and Before Dishonor could not accomplish the same things for Janeway that a book set after Before Dishonor with a living Janeway could. Data has been successfully used in The Buried Age and The Sky's the Limit, among other books. Chewbacca has been used well in Allegiance and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Why can't a pre-death Janeway be as effective or better?

I don't think Janeway's situation is too dissimilar from what happened in the second season of Babyolon 5. Sinclair, the leading character, was written out of the show. We later see him go back in time to live and die in the past. The show not only survived with a new lead, but it thrived. There will always be those who refuse to accept a Bablyon 5 without Sinclair, but for those who are the least bit open to the idea of someone new in charge, they will find a series that soared to new heights.

No matter what the editors say now, there are always possibilities for the future. My prediction is that we will see Janeway in the "current" Voyager stories by 2015, the 20th anniversary year of the show. Whether that is in flesh and blood form, a spirit, a Q representative, or something vastly different, I cannot begin to say, but I do believe that some bright mind will come up with a great idea and convince the other people in charge to make it happen.

I'm one of those who skipped Babylon 5 after Sinclair left.

I didn't like when Jack O'Neill left Stargate SG-1 either but they did at least have the grace to keep him alive and bring him back for numerous guest appearances.

As for the lack of Janeway in the time between Distant Shores and Resistance, I must state that the absence of the main character in the Voyager books is a sign of lack of imagination and constructive ideas.

OK, I realize that making Janeway an admiral did paint the character into a corner and I've often ciriticized the move to make Janeway a desk clerk in previous post, most notably my lenghty review of "Homecoming" some years ago.

But that could change with a little will, skill and imagination!

Kirk was brought back in command of Enterprise in the movies, despite being an admiral. The same could be done for Janeway. Definitely more constructive than to kill off the character. Imagine how many interesting new stories which could be the result of such a move!
 
Babylon 5 got SO much better after Sinclair left; man, Lynx, your whole insistence on casts never changing is really robbing you of some great stories. I mean, what makes the characters introduced in the first season so special? The same guy that came up with Sinclair came up with Sheridan, after all. Why is it that only main characters that appear at the beginning of a show are interesting to you?
 
:lol:

Lynx, you really think reversing a decision to kill a fictional character is "making history"? I mean, if this is your definition of "standing up for what's right", I think you have a vastly overinflated idea of Star Trek's importance to the world.

Plus, it's art. There is no "right" and "wrong", just questions of personal taste. And I happen to like this change, and rather resent you telling me that by preferring the stories I prefer I'm doing something morally wrong.

Laughing at another poster isn't actually polite.

But since I obviously have committed blasphemy by questioning the decisions of the "leaders", I guess that my opinions are worth nothing. :rolleyes:

Anyway, art or not, a lot of ardent fans dislike the fact that a beloved main character in the series are killed off for very dubious reasons.

If you like to see main characters being killed off at random, fine. But you must realize that there are many fans who strongly dislike it and whose interest for the books are ruined by this decision.
 
:lol:

Lynx, you really think reversing a decision to kill a fictional character is "making history"? I mean, if this is your definition of "standing up for what's right", I think you have a vastly overinflated idea of Star Trek's importance to the world.

Plus, it's art. There is no "right" and "wrong", just questions of personal taste. And I happen to like this change, and rather resent you telling me that by preferring the stories I prefer I'm doing something morally wrong.

Laughing at another poster isn't actually polite.

But since I obviously have committed blasphemy by questioning the decisions of the "leaders", I guess that my opinions are worth nothing. :rolleyes:

Anyway, art or not, a lot of ardent fans dislike the fact that a beloved main character in the series are killed off for very dubious reasons.

If you like to see main characters being killed off at random, fine. But you must realize that there are many fans who strongly dislike it and whose interest for the books are ruined by this decision.

Oh quit playing the victim. You're here, you're posting, you're being heard and responded to, no one is trying to shut you up or tell you your opinions are worth nothing. In fact, I submitted an extremely lengthy post a couple pages ago about how I disagreed so strongly with the creative decisions of the Star Wars book people that I stopped reading that series entirely. I don't think it's blasphemy to question the choices of those in charge and neither does anyone else. Get off your high horse.

The problem with your posting is this: a lot of ardent fans do dislike the change, sure, but this would be true of ANY CHANGE AT ALL. You simply CANNOT please all the ardent fans; it's difficult to even please most of them. And basing any of your storytelling on attempts to do so is a losing battle.

But then again, you apparently don't ever want any change - every cast member, in their original role, never moving on, never dying - so I guess that argument probably doesn't make sense to you. Just keep in mind this; books that never make any big or important changes are just as much of a turnoff to others as these books apparently are to you.

As I said earlier, they pretty much just tell the stories they want to tell, and sometimes it works for you and sometimes it doesn't. Taking it personally is a waste of energy.
 
just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

I find it odd that approx. a year and a half later there's this vocal backlash (AFAIK by a loud \ outspoken minority)... Did no one care back in 2007? :rolleyes:

Obviously not, because most of the Janeway fans thought that she was just teporarily killed off, that Q would bring her back to life and that she would return in the next Voyager book.

um... since the next Voyager book is Full Circle (which hasn't been out yet...) isn't a bit premature to complain?? Not that I think Janeway should (or will for that matter) come back, but shouldn't you tried-and-true JFans read the :censored: in' book before getting your neuro-gel-packs in a bunch?:rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top