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Slayerverse Big Bad Comparison Question

Technobuilder

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Here's something I've been wondering about as I've been rewatching Buffy:TVS - Season 7, and I'm not sure if it's ever been adequately addressed.

Q: How does the First Evil compare to the Wolf, Ram, & Hart?

The quintessential "Big Bads" of their respective series, has their relationship with each other ever been commented upon? (Do they even have one?)

Obviously there is a connection, but it's degree is what I'm a little fuzzy upon.

Has Whedon ever made comments either way? Are there any indications at all?

Any random theories?
 
IIRC, Illyria was surprised that the Wolf, Ram and Hart had grown so powerful while she was gone. My interpretation of that was that they were essentially minor nobodies who made a considerable power grab when the Old Ones left our dimension.

The First, on the other hand, predates everything else.
 
This is my explanation of the relationship, lifted from a fic I once wrote. Its Dawn asking and Xander answering. Its pretty short.


"How come the First fizzled?"



"Anya and Spike might call you on that"


"You know what I mean."


"At first, it looked like The First Evil was the equivalent of The First
Slayer. An unfrozen caveman devil. But that more points to those Old Ones the
Master was hot for."


"So the First was who?"


"It was like this old-line mob boss compared to the CEO-ish structure of W&H.
It was capable of raising a gang, and targeting some selected innocents. It had
'funds', ya know, the direct power it invested in the initial ubervamp and
then Caleb. It knew where an equally out-of-date law enforcement organization
was located, and hit it hard. Of course, its stealth/psyche-out power to appear
as someone who died played the role of eyes and ears and the equivalent of
mailing a relatives' body parts to its intended targets. It wanted its old turf
back, and it talked big like a boss just out of stir might do. It had the
unwitting help of a small town that gleefully told people there was no Mafia."


"So why'd it go lame-o?"


"Its problems beat its advantages. It couldn't override someone's will, just
misdirect them. If pro buttmunch Andrew and someone with Spike's past were able
to shake it off, then all it could do, aside from the Bringers/Arm-Breakers,
was taunt the weaker Potentials into breaking. Even if the Watchers were out of
touch, their rogue/best agent, Buffy, was not, however long it took her to get
her act together. Through mostly error and some harsh trials, she and we stayed
alive."


"Almost not. When that one Ubervamp and Caleb first showed, they tossed
buildings around. Then one's beheaded, one's Caponed preacher, and at the end,
the Neos were holding back a whole army pf Ubers."


Xander nodded.


"If TFE had, in effect, a 300K budget, it spent 100K apiece of that on the
initial ubervamp--think the ice-cold old man who did Joe Pesci at the end of
'Goodfellas'--and Caleb, aka the modern-day top Made Man. This meant the rest
of its fundage/power had to be divided among the Bringers/Leg-breakers and
lesser ubervamps. Killers one and all, but not the best. Once the Slayers were
awakened, this meant a far more even battle that I think the Neo-Slayers could
have won regardless, despite a higher body count. Enter the mob family that has
long since gone legit, W&H. They don't fear TFE, except for some minor chaos.
They maybe do worry about the few Neos who emerge victorious from the
Hellmouth. All battle-hardened to the max, fully capable of training the
emerging ones from around the world. I guess the Senior Partners guessed that
Buffy would head into the Hellmouth itself, hence the amulet. So they act to
keep the battle short, and once the flow goes with the Slayers, its won."


"So where is it now?"


"TFE may have been a victim of its own best trick. During one of his whines,
Andrew said that it responded as Warren to a Star Wars quote, just like Warren
would have. Using the form of someone who died may have made TFE take on its
personality traits. Certainly its Buffy-taunts were Buffy-like, to hear your
sister tell it. Soooo---what usually happens to Buffy after a big defeat? She
sulks until she is shaken out of it by us. TFE was wearing Buffy's form
constantly when things went down. When Buffy shook off her wound, she said it
looked despondent. The big score had failed, its fortune in power was spent for
now, its gathered followers/gang all fell in the big hole, and it had no
friends to say, 'Hey, c'mon, you've been through worse..' It now sits and sulks
in what was Sunnydale, numb and disbelieving that it could be thwarted. It'll
spend a few million years wondering where Xander and Will are."


"Hold up. If it has this weakness, wouldn't it know to compensate?"


Xander stood in a George Reeves pose, with the setting sun behind him, his
voice deepening.

"Evil Never Learns."
 
This reminds me of when Buffy S7 and Angel S4 were airing. A few of us here were convinced that the First Evil and the Beast's hidden master were the same thing and the season was going to end with one huge awesome crossover. Oh well. :p
 
Heck, I'm still surprised that Dawn's little dimensional portal didn't help the Fang Gang escape from Pylea.
 
Not sure exactly, I just always thought the First is evil incarnate, kinda like Andrew asked "Are you—are you made out of the evil impulses of humans, so if everyone was unconscious at the same time, you would fade away?"

Whereas the Wolf, Ram and Hart are just very powerful pure demons
 
Not sure exactly, I just always thought the First is evil incarnate, kinda like Andrew asked "Are you—are you made out of the evil impulses of humans, so if everyone was unconscious at the same time, you would fade away?"

Whereas the Wolf, Ram and Hart are just very powerful pure demons

Again to use the gangster analogy, I think of WRH as being powerful in and of themselves, ala The Kingpin, but the actual bulk of their power lies in the immense, hyper-Corleone-ish favors network they've built around them. They have nasty levels of power, particularly over their servants; but their true power lies in all the people and entities that owe them and must respond when that debt is called.
 
Not sure exactly, I just always thought the First is evil incarnate, kinda like Andrew asked "Are you—are you made out of the evil impulses of humans, so if everyone was unconscious at the same time, you would fade away?"

Whereas the Wolf, Ram and Hart are just very powerful pure demons
We don't even know if WRH are pure demons. They could be mixed lower versions like vampires or possibly not even demons at all. There really isn't very much information on them just that they have access to lots of power and pull the strings behind much of the evil in Angel.

A bette analogy would be that the First is a primordial being like the First Slayer while beings like the current group of slayers and WRH are their successors better adapted to the current conditions of the world.
 
Again to use the gangster analogy, I think of WRH as being powerful in and of themselves, ala The Kingpin, but the actual bulk of their power lies in the immense, hyper-Corleone-ish favors network they've built around them. They have nasty levels of power, particularly over their servants; but their true power lies in all the people and entities that owe them and must respond when that debt is called.

I think this is spot on. That's exactly the method they used throughout the series, doing supernatural favours for people in power and making sure those debts are paid in full when necessary.
 
Wow, I never thought that the S5 finale and the S2 Angel finale might have hooked up like that. That would have been awesome. Of course it wouldn't work with the whole killing Buffy bit.
 
Not sure exactly, I just always thought the First is evil incarnate, kinda like Andrew asked "Are you—are you made out of the evil impulses of humans, so if everyone was unconscious at the same time, you would fade away?"

Whereas the Wolf, Ram and Hart are just very powerful pure demons
We don't even know if WRH are pure demons. They could be mixed lower versions like vampires or possibly not even demons at all. There really isn't very much information on them just that they have access to lots of power and pull the strings behind much of the evil in Angel.

A bette analogy would be that the First is a primordial being like the First Slayer while beings like the current group of slayers and WRH are their successors better adapted to the current conditions of the world.

The First Slayer is not a primordial being, she's just a girl that a few men jacked up with a demonic entity.

The First Evil, it is implied, existed even before the universe existed. TRUELY primordial.
 
The First Slayer is not a primordial being,
I suggest you look up the definition of "primordial"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/primordial

Yeah, and the First Slayer would NOT be primordial. She's just a girl, enhanced by a demonic entity. There were girls before here, there were demons before, long, long, long strings of 'em, she's not primordial. Most certainly not anywhere close to The First Evil or even the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart.

Seriously, at least one of those three are in the creation myths of just about every pagan religion in the Americas and Europe. If there's anyone primordial it's them and the FE. The first Slayer though, just one girl and one demon in a long line of girls and demons that some shadow men stuffed together.
 
There weren't slayers before her. She started the whole line and I don't think this thread is really the best place to give you English lesson.
 
We know from various sources in Buffy, including "Amends" and "Never Leave Me," IIRC, that the First Evil is an extra-dimensional non-corporeal entity that existed prior to the origin of the Universe and will exist long after it ceases to exist. The First Evil is evil incarnate -- it is the psychic force that is the origin of all evil, everywhere. Various episodes feature the First claiming that it lives within all sentient entities; this implies that an aspect of the First's consciousness influences all sentient creatures towards evil impulses, desires, and behaviors. That the First was unable to counter plans formulated by Buffy, though, implies that the First is incapable of engaging in out-and-out telepathy. The First is incapable of assuming corporeal form in a given dimension -- unless, as indicated in "Chosen," purely evil entities outnumber mostly good entities, for whatever reason.

Illyria is known to have been one of the Old Ones -- the pure-blood Demons that lived on Earth prior to the origin of Humanity. The Old Ones were eventually pushed out of this realm and into others, but it's an established fact that some Old Ones bred with Humans, creating the humanoid Demons seen throughout Buffy and Angel, and that amongst these Human-Demon half-breeds were the first Vampires. Illyria describes being surprised that the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart survived, indicating that they hadn't been that strong. Ergo, it would seem that the Wolf, Ram, and Hart were originally amongst the human-demon half-breeds who grew strong, creating cabals of Humans loyal to them to do their bidding. Amongst these cabals is the law firm of Wolfram and Hart created in L.A. in the late 18th Century (in reference to which the Wolf, Ram, and Hart assumed the euphemistic title of "the Senior Partners"). Presumably the Senior Partners have created other cabals throughout human history -- in "Reprise," the fellow in the elevator whose name I can't recall says that the Senior Partners were behind the first murder committed by any Human against another Human and that they were behind the Khemer Rogue in Cambodia. We also know from the Pylea arc that the Senior Partners established a religious organization dedicated to their service in Pylea. And, of course, we know from "Power Play" that they created the Circle of the Black Thorn as a smaller, more elite cabal of Demons to serve them on Earth.

Presumably the Senior Partners have numerous other conspiracies and organizations dedicated to their service in numerous other dimensions.
 
Wow, I never thought that the S5 finale and the S2 Angel finale might have hooked up like that. That would have been awesome. Of course it wouldn't work with the whole killing Buffy bit.

I dunno about that. It might've caused Angel more angst/grief (as if he really needed more, right?) finding out from Willow that their escape was made possible because of Buffy's death/sacrifice. But, given that the barrier between the dimensions had (temporarily) been weakened it would've made sense that the fang gang could've used that temporary weakening of the dimensional barriers to help them escape from Pylea. Such a weakening of the barriers between dimensions would've also had interesting implications for S3 when Angel was trying desperately to get to Quortoth to find/save Connor but that was a significant period of time after the events of "The Gift" and even he would've never tried to use Dawn's blood for such a purpose, particularly since doing so would've put Buffy (or Dawn) right back into the position of having to sacrifice herself (yet again) to close the portal.
 
This reminds me of when Buffy S7 and Angel S4 were airing. A few of us here were convinced that the First Evil and the Beast's hidden master were the same thing and the season was going to end with one huge awesome crossover. Oh well. :p
I've been watching both shows for the first time, and this is exactly the point I'm at! We just finished Season 7 of Buffy and have just a couple episodes left in Angel Season 4. I was sooooo hoping that the First Evil's appearance in Buffy was related to the apocalypse in Angel.

Boooooooo for that not happening!
 
Boooooooo for that not happening!

Around the time they originally aired, there was a lot of fake spoilers about a massive battle in the final episode of Buffy where literally all of Angel's main characters (Angel, Wesley, Cordelia, Fred, Gunn and even people like Kate and Lindsey) would appear and fight on Buffy's side.

It was clear it was all nonsense simply because they were talking about killing off Cordelia during the battle. I'm sure the WB would have loved the idea of one of their show's characters being killed off on a show on a different network.
 
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Around the time they originally aired, there was a lot of fake spoilers about a massive battle in the final episode of Buffy where literally all of Angel's main characters (Angel, Wesley, Cordelia, Fred, Gunn and even people like Kate and Lindsey) would appear and fight on Buffy's side.
And that would have been AWESOME!

Especially Lindsey with his evil plastic hand. :evil:

Plus, by the time we got to the end of Buffy, Cordelia had already been effectively killed off anyway.
La la la, I can't hear you! La la la, I still have a disc left in Angel Season 4!

*puts fingers in ears*
 
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