B5 spinoff series Crusade not too shabby

[JoeD80]

Many lines of dialogue were lifted wholesale from previous characters and episodes in B5. I recall Galen being particularly guilty in this.

Let me rephrase the question? What specific dialogue? I am curious to exact quotes, because I don't recall any. Maybe a phrase or two that jms likes to use a lot ("after a fashion" comes to mind) but *whole lines of dialogue lifted wholesale?* Which ones? I just don't have the greatest memory when it comes to dialogue.

I'm sure Jan could speak with more authority on the subject as well as JMS's original desire to make a spin-off that featured the previous B5 cast and be about the building of the Intersteller Alliance. TNT, iirc, wanted something that had an all-new cast.

The Rangers treatment in the script book has Sheridan, G'Kar, Marcus Cole and Mathras (Zathras' brother) [I might have missed somebody, my copy is in a box right now]. At the time the thought was the series would follow season 4 of B5, without an expectation of season 5. This was before it was Crusade though, and it sounds like from the commentary in the script book that it was jms' decision not to include as much as the B5 cast in Crusade.

The Empire building was going to be in the sequel but there was going to be a lot of set-up in season 5 for those threads. jms says he decided not to do the Empire building threads in season 5 because it would have left Babylon 5 too open-ended. (Some of the threads that I can recall off the top of my head: a Technomage would have shown up early in season 5 [I assume this was where the idea for Galen came from]; someone claiming to be Sheridan's son would come from the future to stop him & Delenn from their Empire Building plans; it would turn out later that it actually was Sheridan's son; Ivanova was going to encounter another mysterious force to set-up Crusade; that's all about I can remember -- I can't wait to unpack my boxes!)

 

[DS9Continuing]

It seems a little odd that two networks would both want a pilot character added.

Not so much of a stretch as suits are always looking to turn anything remotely science fiction into Star Wars with the rouge Han Solo-type, hotshot pilot.

I'm pretty sure I read that the same thing happened with Trace as with Keffer. That's why he took the very first chance - "Ruling from the Tomb" - to give Trace a history as a failed priest, rather than a hotshot badass pilot. Thus giving TNT nominally what they asked for but really giving them the exact opposite, again out of spite. Brilliant though he may be, JMS is definitely not above being petty.

Originally posted by JoeD80:
What ideas and dialogue were being recycled? The show took place in the B5 universe so naturally, some of the things that occur in the B5 universe are going to occur in Crusade. I don't know what dialogue this refers to though?

I'm not sure if this is what Mr Light meant, but to me, what is recycled is the way the story is structured and built up. JMS used basically the same techniques to construct the Crusade story as the original Babylon 5 story.

When he dropped hints in his famed "holographic storytelling" way on the original series, it was a fairly new way of working, and caught many viewers off guard. When he used the same techniques five years later on the spin-off, we'd caught onto his tricks and weren't fooled anymore. Therefore any future-plot hints that were dropped landed with all the subtlety of an anvil.

Originally posted by JoeD80:

The fifth season of B5 was shot on a 6-day schedule, instead of the typical 7 days...

That's not so very surprising either.

Why's that? The scripts were the same length.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course the scripts were the same length. And when you've got a whole day less of time to produce that script, things become rushed and prone to short-cuts. It's inevitable.

 

[Mr Light]

Offhand I don't remember any direct quotes, sorry. But phrases and sentences were repeated, I think from G'Kar to Galen perhaps. Also the aforementioned story structure.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Offhand I don't remember any direct quotes, sorry. But phrases and sentences were repeated, I think from G'Kar to Galen perhaps. Also the aforementioned story structure.

Well, certain bits of dialogue are JMS's signature in all his works. Phrases like "never start a fight but finish it" turn up in his non science-fiction work (see The Changeling). JMS also has a set of themes and motifs that tend to dominate his work be it comics, television, film or novels.

 

[chrisspringob]

In fact, the original title of the series was The Babylon Project: Crusade. That got shortened to Crusade. I'm sure Jan could speak with more authority on the subject as well as JMS's original desire to make a spin-off that featured the previous B5 cast and be about the building of the Intersteller Alliance. TNT, iirc, wanted something that had an all-new cast.

There are a couple of different iterations of what JMS wanted in a B5 spinoff. Before Season 1 went into production, JMS had a story outline in which open war with the Shadows didn't even begin until Season 5, and the whole series ended on a cliffhanger, with the main storylines hopefully be resolved in a spinoff series called "Babylon Prime", which would include most of the B5 cast. I posted a synopsis of the plot outline for this that JMS printed in the final B5 script book at some point shortly after the book came out.

But then, after B5 was deep into its run, and it was clear that the main storylines would be resolved within the 5 year arc of the show (assuming renewal), JMS started developing another spinoff idea called "Babylon 5: Rangers" which, eventually, after many mutations, turned into "Crusade". There was the idea at one point to include much of the original B5 cast into "Rangers" (including Sheridan, Delenn, G'Kar, Franklin, and Marcus....this was before JMS had definitively decided to kill off Marcus). It was supposed to be "Camelot in Space", and would be about the Rangers going out in space, and helping to maintain order in the Galaxy.

But then, there were several changes to the concept, including the nixing of the use of the original cast and the introduction of the plague storyline. But it was still going to be a show that featured the Rangers, but it would be the Rangers who went out and searched for the cure to the plague. Then, suddenly, when the show was greenlit, the concept was changed so that it was an EA crew rather than a Ranger crew. JMS has never really gone through all the details of this and why these changes were made, but he presumably will, once he does the Crusade script books.

However, I pieced together much of what happened, based on what's in the existing script books, and various JMS posts over the years. I had a thread on this here on trekbbs at one point, but I can't find it now. But here's a similar thread I made on this at b5tv.com:

http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9763

especially this post:

http://www.b5tv.com/showpost.php?p=291106&postcount=9

 

[chrisspringob]

Just found this other post that I made in that thread from b5tv.com, which offers a more concise explanation of what I was able to piece together from all the various JMS quotes and memos printed in the script books. To quote myself:

http://www.b5tv.com/showpost.php?p=291497&postcount=36

And in fact, according to JMS, it wasn't just TNT that wanted B5 to distinguish itself from B5, but WB as well. He says "WB was desperate to make sure that this show was different from B5". It looks like the order of events may have been something like this:

1) JMS proposes a spinoff series focusing on the Rangers, with about half the B5 cast included as regulars.

2) WB and/or TNT doesn't want it to be so closely associated with B5, so the number of original series castmembers that would transfer over is cut down to just one or two, one of whom was Marcus. (This was all happening when Season 4 was in production. "Endgame" hadn't been written yet, so it was still possible Marcus to survive.)

3) Marcus gets killed off in "Endgame". (Maybe WB/TNT was telling JMS that he wouldn't be allowed to have *any* B5 characters in the spinoff, so he figured "what the hell, I'll kill him off????)

4) The idea of focusing the story on the Rangers is nixed in favor of an EA crew.

But it also looks like (based on what's written in the script book) the Drakh plague idea came pretty early in the process. Not sure if that was in there before or after the idea of transfering over about half the B5 cast got dropped. But it definitely came *way* before the idea of using a Ranger crew got dropped.

One thing that's really unclear is when the whole idea of Earth's covert use of Shadow tech (what JMS later described as the "real" story arc) came up. It doesn't sound like that was in JMS's original pitch. It looks like either he was holding that part close to his vest, or it developed over time. Maybe the idea of the Drakh plague actually led to the idea of focusing the show more on Shadow tech. We do know that the idea of a Technomage character was in there kind of early, but not necessarily right at the beginning. It might have come up after the Drakh plague idea.

I also still find it interesting how all of the Arthurian stuff (like the title "Crusade" and the sword in the credits, etc.) was originally in there because the show was supposed to be about the Rangers, and the Rangers are sort of like the knights of the round table. But then the Rangers part was dropped, and the Arthurian stuff stayed in there.

 

[JoeD80]

Thus giving TNT nominally what they asked for but really giving them the exact opposite, again out of spite. Brilliant though he may be, JMS is definitely not above being petty.

I'm thankful for that! If he was another writer who just gave into the demands of the network et. al. his shows wouldn't be as good. As a good example, the earlier episodes of The Real Ghostbusters when in jms' words they just "ignored whatever the toy company wanted" were the better ones IMO.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course the scripts were the same length. And when you've got a whole day less of time to produce that script, things become rushed and prone to short-cuts. It's inevitable.

How many pages do you shoot in *one* day? Five or six? It's not that much to spread over the rest of the days. The point is the script has to be shot the same way (master shots / covering shots) because it's the same length. I don't understand where this perceived notion that changing a production schedule somehow would affect a show in this way. The directors are professionals. They are used to dealing with differing shooting schedules across different shows. They do this all the time, and in the case of B5 it is one of the very few shows that hardly ever went overtime and in fact sometimes wrapped early. On a show like that, it's easy to shorten the schedule by a day. You just add an extra page to each of the other days.

3) Marcus gets killed off in "Endgame". (Maybe WB/TNT was telling JMS that he wouldn't be allowed to have *any* B5 characters in the spinoff, so he figured "what the hell, I'll kill him off????

Marcus did *NOT* get killed off in Endgame. He was put in suspended animation. jms actually planned to still use him, and in fact he was still listed in the treatment for Crusade *AFTER* season 4 had finished production and *AFTER* the "death-scene" in question, but he said that Claudia not joining the cast for season 5 put a monkey-wrench in that plan. (My guess is there was a plan involving the telepaths there, but he never elaborated on this point -- he might still in the planned Crusade script books though)

One thing that's really unclear is when the whole idea of Earth's covert use of Shadow tech (what JMS later described as the "real" story arc) came up.

That thread started back in episode 101 of Babylon 5, "Infection" [although the audience doesn't know it's Shadow tech at the time] and was tracked through several other episodes. My thought was this thread was always supposed to carry over to the sequel. Hopefully will find out more in the Crusade script books.

We do know that the idea of a Technomage character was in there kind of early, but not necessarily right at the beginning. It might have come up after the Drakh plague idea.

The Technomage was at least planned for the Empire Building threads of season 5 of Babylon 5 that ended up not being integrated, and that was before the idea of the plague I think (not entirely sure there).

 

[JoeD80]

I also still find it interesting how all of the Arthurian stuff (like the title "Crusade" and the sword in the credits, etc.) was originally in there because the show was supposed to be about the Rangers, and the Rangers are sort of like the knights of the round table. But then the Rangers part was dropped, and the Arthurian stuff stayed in there.

Sorry to double-post. -- The sword was supposed to be in the show -- Dureena was going to lose her memory and show up with the sword at the end of the first season. I don't think the opening credits animation was done until they knew what the show was going to be.

 

[Jan]

[I'm pretty sure I read that the same thing happened with Trace as with Keffer. That's why he took the very first chance - "Ruling from the Tomb" - to give Trace a history as a failed priest, rather than a hotshot badass pilot. Thus giving TNT nominally what they asked for but really giving them the exact opposite, again out of spite. Brilliant though he may be, JMS is definitely not above being petty.

Granted. Witness the Jarvis toilets. However, "Ruling from the Tomb" was written by Peter David, not JMS. We won't know if the backstory for Trace was Peter's idea or mandated by JMS until the Crusade: Other Voices book comes out, probably.

As for Trace having been decreed by WB or TNT, it's nothing I've ever read or heard so I'd be interested in a source. Not saying it's not true, it's just not in JMS's archived posts. One thing that may be telling is that he's not mentioned in the Crusade Writer's Bible.

Jan

 

[AJBryant]

Marcus did *NOT* get killed off in Endgame. He was put in suspended animation. jms actually planned to still use him, and in fact he was still listed in the treatment for Crusade *AFTER* season 4 had finished production and *AFTER* the "death-scene" in question, but he said that Claudia not joining the cast for season 5 put a monkey-wrench in that plan.

Really?

It sure looked like he was dead to me. And Ivanova just freeze-stored his body hoping to one day be able to do something.

 

[Jan]

There was a scene in the script that was cut where a med-tech is reporting to Franklin that there was still some residual brain activity so they put him into cryonic freeze. I think Ivanova funded the upkeep of his freezer indefinitely in hopes of finding a way to reverse the effects of the machine.

His revival actually happened in "Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic", one of the B5 short stories in Amazing Stories.

Jan

 

[chrisspringob]

Marcus did *NOT* get killed off in Endgame. He was put in suspended animation. jms actually planned to still use him, and in fact he was still listed in the treatment for Crusade *AFTER* season 4 had finished production and *AFTER* the "death-scene" in question, but he said that Claudia not joining the cast for season 5 put a monkey-wrench in that plan. (My guess is there was a plan involving the telepaths there, but he never elaborated on this point -- he might still in the planned Crusade script books though)

The treatment for Crusade that you mention is posted by JMS here:

http://www.jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_Jerry Doyle hopeful of B5 revival

The treatment lists Marcus as a character on Crusade, and also refers to *Captain* Sheridan (not President Sheridan) giving the Ranger fleet its mission. Problem is that JMS says that the date stamp on this treatment is June 16th, 1998, which was after filming had already wrapped on *Season 5*. How could it still be "Captain" Sheridan at that point? How could the "Claudia situation" have anything to do with Marcus's character being dropped after that point, when Claudia had already been off the show for a year by then?

Only possible explanations: JMS made a typo when he said it was dated June 16th, 1998, and it was actually dated somewhat earlier than that, *or* it was dated June 1998, but the treatment had included some artifacts from an earlier draft that had already been dropped. Either way, it means that we're still lacking evidence that JMS intended for Marcus to still be a character on Crusade *after* he made the decision to 'kill' Marcus in "Endgame". Unless there's a JMS quote that I'm missing somewhere that would clarify this?

The sword was supposed to be in the show -- Dureena was going to lose her memory and show up with the sword at the end of the first season. I don't think the opening credits animation was done until they knew what the show was going to be.

Yes, I know that. My point was that JMS chose to include the Arthurian iconography, like calling the show "Crusade", having a sword featured in the opening credits and being used in the show, having a wizard character, etc....even after the original impetus for doing so (the show being "Camelot in Space" and featuring the Rangers) had vanished. I'm not arguing that that's a bad thing. I actually think it's kind of cool. I was just making an observation.

 

[JoeD80]

Really?

It sure looked like he was dead to me. And Ivanova just freeze-stored his body hoping to one day be able to do something.

There's a funny story in the script books about Grey 17 Is Missing -- the rest of the cast tried to convince Jason Carter that Marcus was to die in that episode -- killed by Neroon. Jason got a peak at the script, and saw the scene where Neroon had his pike over Marcus about to make the death-blow. So Jason was sure his character was dead in that episode and was worried that was the end for him. After a long period of worry, jms assured him that his character was not to die in Grey 17 and decided to make a promise to him that he would never be killed again -- so jms made sure he was only frozen at the end of season 4; not dead.

The treatment lists Marcus as a character on Crusade, and also refers to *Captain* Sheridan (not President Sheridan) giving the Ranger fleet its mission. Problem is that JMS says that the date stamp on this treatment is June 16th, 1998, which was after filming had already wrapped on *Season 5*. How could it still be "Captain" Sheridan at that point?

Hm, didn't notice that, but I believe he meant 1997, because Crusade was well into pre-production already by June 16th 1998. By that date jms already knew the character would be Matthew Gideon, not Matthew Drake. Hopefully this will become clearer with the Crusade script books. If it was June 1997 -- that was *after* Marcus's death scene and *before* Claudia left the show.

However:

Either way, it means that we're still lacking evidence that JMS intended for Marcus to still be a character on Crusade *after* he made the decision to 'kill' Marcus in "Endgame". Unless there's a JMS quote that I'm missing somewhere that would clarify this?

The evidence is when jms said this:

and obviously the Claudia situation threw a monkey wrench into using the character of Markus, as originally planned.

Claudia had not left the show at the time of Marcus's death scene. Claudia left between seasons 4 & 5. So unless Joe is confusing his own thoughts, then Marcus was still planned for use after said "death" scene.

 

[chrisspringob]

The treatment lists Marcus as a character on Crusade, and also refers to *Captain* Sheridan (not President Sheridan) giving the Ranger fleet its mission. Problem is that JMS says that the date stamp on this treatment is June 16th, 1998, which was after filming had already wrapped on *Season 5*. How could it still be "Captain" Sheridan at that point?

Hm, didn't notice that, but I believe he meant 1997, because Crusade was well into production already by June 16th 1998. By that date jms already knew the character would be Matthew Gideon, not Matthew Drake. Hopefully this will become clearer with the Crusade script books. If it was June 1997 -- that was still after Marcus's death scene and *before* Claudia left the show.

Right, but you're just guessing that he meant June 16th, 1997. If he got the date wrong, then there's no way to know for sure which actual date he meant. If it's June 16th, 1997, then that still doesn't explain why it's *Captain* Sheridan rather than *President*, as "Rising Star" had already been filmed by June 1997.

Either way, it means that we're still lacking evidence that JMS intended for Marcus to still be a character on Crusade *after* he made the decision to 'kill' Marcus in "Endgame". Unless there's a JMS quote that I'm missing somewhere that would clarify this?

The evidence is that jms said exactly that:

and obviously the Claudia situation threw a monkey wrench into using the character of Markus, as originally planned.

Claudia had not left the show at the time of Marcus's death scene. Claudia left between seasons 4 & 5. So unless Joe is confusing his own thoughts, then Marcus was still planned for use after said death scene.

Well, I wouldn't preclude the possibility that Joe is confusing his own thoughts.

Because of the inconsistencies I mentioned, it's hard to know exactly when that treatment was written, and what the exact reasons were for the changes that took place before Crusade went into production. I'll grant you that the most probable meaning of "obviously the Claudia situation threw a monkey wrench into using the character of Markus, as originally planned" is that he was going to be resurrected from cryo-freeze if she had stayed on the show, but he never explicitly comes out and says that that's what he means by that. He wrote that Usenet message five years after the fact, and it's possible that he mixed up the timing of when he decided to play the Marcus death scene as being final, or maybe there's some other explanation.

Did JMS ever explicitly say that the scene that Jan refers to a few posts ago, where a med tech reports to Franklin on residual brain activity in Marcus, was cut specifically because of Claudia's departure from the show?

Anyway, I would consider the resurrection of Marcus to be a massive dramatic cheat, so I *hope* he wasn't thinking about that too seriously. But I guess we'll find out when the Crusade script books come out.

 

[JoeD80]

Right, but you're just guessing that he meant June 16th, 1997. If he got the date wrong, then there's no way to know for sure which actual date he meant. If it's June 16th, 1997, then that still doesn't explain why it's *Captain* Sheridan rather than *President*, as "Rising Star" had already been filmed by June 1997.

Yes I am just guessing, which is why I said hopefully it will be clearer with the script books.

Did JMS ever explicitly say that the scene that Jan refers to a few posts ago, where a med tech reports to Franklin on residual brain activity in Marcus, was cut specifically because of Claudia's departure from the show?

I would think that the scene was just cut for time. The only line jms mentioned as being changed due to Claudia leaving was in "Rising Star" where the news anchor reports Ivanova taking on command of the new ship (and it's still pretty close to the original line in the script too). Interesting thought though...I hope those new script books come out sometime before 2010.

 

[Jan]

I think that waiting for the Crusade script books is all we can do. It's obvious that Crusade went through several iterations from the 'Babylon Prime' plan through to the 'empire building' and on to the Crusade that we got. I do have a memo/outline for 'A Call to Arms' (when it was titled "Eve of Destruction") and by then the decision was to have 'few or none' of the original cast on Crusade. He suggested Andreas Katsulas for the Techno-mage and Tracy Scoggins as a possibility for the Captain of the Excalibur in that memo, too. Much as I liked the Galen we got, I'd've loved to see Andreas in the role.

Jan

 

[Jan]

Did JMS ever explicitly say that the scene that Jan refers to a few posts ago, where a med tech reports to Franklin on residual brain activity in Marcus, was cut specifically because of Claudia's departure from the show?

No, he never said that. The scene was in an early draft of the script. If I recall correctly, can't we see what seems to be Marcus' shrouded body behind the glass that Ivanova is leaning against in the episode?

I'll have to compare the page count between the two drafts when I get home. It could be that it was cut for time even before filming started. It was a 'walk & talk' scene where the med-tech met Franklin in Customs and reports as he hurries to Medlab.

Jan

 

[JoeD80]

and Tracy Scoggins as a possibility for the Captain of the Excalibur in that memo, too.

Was that suggestion for Crusade or just for the movie?

 

[Jan]

As I recall it was for the series. I'll check when I get home from work.

Jan

ETA: It was definitely for the series. Also, in addition to Tracy Scoggins, JMS suggested Michael York for consideration for the new Captain.

 

[Plain Simple]

It's been a few years since I saw Crusade on dvd and I remember next to no details about it, so it must not have made much of an impression on me. It probably could have grown into an interesting enough series, we'll never know, but as it stands it's probably only interesting for B5 fans and hardly holds its own as a separate series.

When he dropped hints in his famed "holographic storytelling" way on the original series, it was a fairly new way of working, and caught many viewers off guard.

What is "holographic storytelling"?