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Question regarding Data

^ Sisko's "end" wasn't a death, however; I always thought it was pretty clear in the episode that he would be coming back eventually, and was surprised when I encountered online people who thought he was actually, irrevocably dead. That aside, I think the Relaunch books did a great job of making Sisko's absence felt during the period he was away, brought him back at the appropriate juncture, and have been doing a good job--respectable and logical--with the character since.

With Data, there is so far every indication that he won't be coming back, whether in a year or yesterday, and as for Tucker, for whatever reason there was such a rush to bring him back that six years of storytelling got sacrificed to the nonsensical conspirary.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Well, like I said, I haven't read that far into the DS9 relaunch, but from what I've read about it, it just seems far too... un-epic for Sisko to be returned so soon? His departure certainly didn't sound like it would just be for a few months (or however long it was before Kassidy and his baby to be born).

I can't comment on the quality of the way he was brought back, but question whether or not it was a good idea to begin with. Especially when there seems to be some sort of inviolable policy against bringing a much more interesting, much more popular character back in Data.
 
Well, it certainly doesn't seem an arbitrary decision, but it doesn't seem a terribly convincing rationale. Clearly, a door was left open for this very thing in the final scene of the film and to deny that it's even plausible to bring Data back seems seriously odd. Were you watching the same ripoff of TWOK I was?

I don't understand your reasoning. Yes, obviously they intended to leave the door open a crack for bringing Data back through B-4. But as we've explained in detail, their attempt to do so was immensely unconvincing, because they depicted B-4 and his limitations in a way that worked against that very possibility. Just because they tried to set up that possibility doesn't mean they succeeded in making it plausible.

Of course, Trek movies aren't always plausible. There was nothing remotely plausible about Genesis and its magical powers. But once TWOK established that Genesis could create life, the resurrection of Spock was an acceptable extrapolation from that, and the retention of his mind in McCoy's was an acceptable extrapolation from established precedent (Vulcan telepathy in general, mind transfer from "Return to Tomorrow"). So it followed from what had been set up before. The same can't be said of turning B-4 into Data, regardless of the filmmakers' intent. Because B-4 was explicitly demonstrated in the film to be far too crude and incapable of learning or functioning at a higher level. Turning him into Data would require ignoring everything established about B-4 throughout the movie. So it wouldn't just be implausible in absolute terms, it would be inconsistent within the story itself.

If the filmmakers had really intended to use B-4 to bring back Data, rather than just tossing it in there halfheartedly as a back door in case there were another sequel and Spiner got paid enough to change his mind, then they should've set up the B-4 character and the nature of the download in such a way that it was believable that he could turn into Data 2.0 -- either that or made B-4 interesting enough to be worth developing as a character in his own right. They failed to do either of those things -- perhaps because they knew it was improbable that Spiner ever would play Data again.

If you ask me, the filmmakers weren't seriously trying to open the door for Data's resurrection. I think they were just trying to soften the blow of Data's demise by giving us an upbeat ending, a sign that something of Data lived on symbolically. B-4 wasn't seriously or primarily intended to be a back door for Data's return, since Spiner's clear intention was to play Data for the last time. He was just an excuse for Spiner to stretch his acting chops with a dual role and get a subplot that parallelled Picard's. Anything beyond that, anything that pointed toward possible resurrection, was just a hedged bet, not a firm intention.

Either way, though, our job as writers is to stay consistent with what's actually onscreen. Not with what the filmmakers' metatextual intentions may have been, but with the letter of the actual text. Since B-4 as seen on screen is a crude prototype incapable of growth, and since "The Offspring" provided hard proof that an android-to-android memory download does not lead to personality transfer, that's what our approach is based on.


IMHO, the key thing that would preclude the writers from resurrected Data is that it seems like they're having fun with the post-Nemesis universe without Data, and the key thing with Trip's resurrection is that the authors seem like they're having fun with a post-Enterprise universe with Trip.

You're defining this solely in terms of intentions and desires, not facts and logic. But stories need to make internal sense, be self-consistent. You can't do any random thing you want to do in a story -- it needs to hold together logically. And in tie-in fiction, it has to be consistent with what's been established onscreen. I've explained why B-4 becoming Data is illogical and inconsistent, and why Trip's survival is quite consistent and simple to justify because we never actually saw him die at all. They're totally different situations.


But, to claim that there's something in the source material that makes it more justifiable? Oh, please -- I agree that Trip's death was ridiculously awful, but I also quite liked Sisko's end in "What You Leave Behind..." but the novels have brought him back too, I gather.

Ahh, but "What You Leave Behind..." made it explicit that Sisko wasn't dead. He was with the Prophets, but alive, and he explicitly promised he would return. So the books have stayed entirely consistent with the precedent set by the show, as well as the intent behind it. So that isn't a valid analogy for what you're arguing for.

And once more, it's not just that Trip's death was awful, it's that we didn't actually see him die. We saw someone two centuries later watching a simulation of his death. That leaves the door wide open for reality being something different. Again, writing Trek fiction isn't just about preferences or wishes, it's about creating a consistent, logical narrative based on the material we're given.

Well, like I said, I haven't read that far into the DS9 relaunch, but from what I've read about it, it just seems far too... un-epic for Sisko to be returned so soon? His departure certainly didn't sound like it would just be for a few months (or however long it was before Kassidy and his baby to be born).

Sisko said his return would be "Maybe a year, maybe yesterday." There was no inconsistency in bringing him back after nine months.

I can't comment on the quality of the way he was brought back, but question whether or not it was a good idea to begin with. Especially when there seems to be some sort of inviolable policy against bringing a much more interesting, much more popular character back in Data.

That's ridiculous. It's not an "inviolable policy." I've explained to you in depth why it's simply not a plausible idea in this particular instance. But if someone came up with a really great story idea for a way to bring Data back -- and, moreover, had a good reason for bringing Data back, something fresh and meaningful to do with the character, rather than just reverting to a familiar status quo -- then of course that story would be done. Nothing's "inviolable" here, and it certainly isn't as arbitrary as you want to pretend. As things stand, there's simply no good reason to resurrect Data. Doing it through B-4 would be implausible and too obvious to be worthwhile; doing it in general terms doesn't seem to serve much purpose beyond nostalgia. "I miss Data" isn't a good enough reason. Not if we want Trek fiction to be done with quality, sincerity, and imagination rather than just going for the obvious and cliched.
 
Well, like I said, I haven't read that far into the DS9 relaunch, but from what I've read about it, it just seems far too... un-epic for Sisko to be returned so soon?

Hmm. Perhaps because you have the benefit of hindsight (hind-foresight?) and know when Sisko will be back, it's less eventful to you. For my part, reading each DS9 book as it came out, Sisko's return felt like an intrinsic part of the long-awaited culmination of the grand-scale events of the Relaunch... particularly after Unity was delayed from the original release date, making the lapse even greater in 'real-time'.

His departure certainly didn't sound like it would just be for a few months (or however long it was before Kassidy and his baby to be born).

He said he might be back in a year; Kass carried her pregnancy to term, so assuming they hadn't conceived too long before she found out, it's about eight months. And I think that when you actually read through those months, particularly Mission: Gamma and Rising Son, you'll see how deeply his absence is felt.

I can't comment on the quality of the way he was brought back, but question whether or not it was a good idea to begin with. Especially when there seems to be some sort of inviolable policy against bringing a much more interesting, much more popular character back in Data.

Not a policy I understand either. That said, bringing Sisko back was, to me, fulfilling the promise made by the episode itself. And--not to spoil anything--but Sisko's return certainly hasn't been accompanied by any kind of reset button; Sisko hasn't gone back to what he was before, but is finding his way in the new relationships and structures of the Relaunch.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I wouldn't want to see Data return through the B-4 route. But Christopher, we never saw Data die either. We see a big explosion and assume that Data died in it. Any number of things could have happened to transport him away before it actually exploded. This is a universe with Q, transporters, cloaked ships, the nexus and many more exotic things floating around everywhere.. I know that is far fetched, but is it anymore far fetched than Genesis? Or Trip becoming a Romulan spy? Or Kirk returning in the Shatnerverse books?

Yes in Enterprise we are watching an historical holo simulation, but clearly the intent of the writers was for Trip to die, just like the intent of Nemesis was for Data to die. Now Trip is back in the books through what is (in my humble opinion) a pretty wild series of events..

I'm not saying that the TNG books NEED Data, or that they aren't doing a great job of soldiering on without him. Some good character moments and some great writing have come out of his death. One of the most beloved TNG characters is gone though, and many of us feel that his death was quite badly done. I and many others would like to see him return in a plausible way someday. If he doesn't, I am certainly going to continue reading because I enjoy the books way too much to stop, but I do feel that something has been missing and as good as some of the new chracters like Kadohata and Choudhury are, they aren't filling the huge space left by Data's death. Could they in time? Perhaps, too early to say. No reason they couldn't all coexist.

If he does return then I would like there to be a damned good reason for it of course. I don't expect him back because just because I and many others would like to see it. As you say there should be a good reason and a great story to back it up. I also have to ask myself, what percentage of the current TNG readers would be quite happy to see Data return? My guess is that an overwhelming majority of them would like to see it. Obviously you guys (the Trek writers and editors) are the ones to make the decision and don't (and probably shouldn't) go by what is written on this message board. I'm just saying that it is something I would like to see someday. There is still some gold to be mined out of Data's 'death', but it can't go on forever.
 
Doing it through B-4 would be implausible and too obvious to be worthwhile.

I find this statement somewhat incomprehensible -- how can something be simultaneously "obvious" and "implausible"? Aren't obvious things, by nature, plausible? The B-4 storyline seems like a dangling thread from Nemesis that the current Pocket authors simply didn't want to pick up on... As Christopher said, there are reasons for this, though I may disagree with him on how much those stated reasons make sense.

But, if we're talking plausibility, hanging the reason Data can't be revived on B-4's poor hardware is just plain silly, especially when we're talking about hardware... y'know, the kind of thing that can be upgraded, modified, etc. Hell, if this was TNG season 1, one could just throw a few Bynars at B-4 and then he'll be whatever you want. :-)

Just to be clear, I don't think it's horrible and terrible that Data hasn't been brought back. I actually think leaving Trip and Sisko alone would have been preferable (not to mention what I gather has happened with Janeway recently).
 
I wouldn't want to see Data return through the B-4 route. But Christopher, we never saw Data die either. We see a big explosion and assume that Data died in it. Any number of things could have happened to transport him away before it actually exploded.

Which requires far more implausible, ad hoc assumptions. Oh, some unseen force just happens to spirit Data away at the last second and then not tell anyone? That's lame. It's contrived. Sure, revealing that the simulation of Trip's death was faked is contrived too, but it's acceptable because the simulation itself was so nonsensical that it demanded reinterpretation. As I said, it's the exception to the rule. I do not consider it precedent for yet another resurrection. Resurrections have been done to death, pardon the expression, and I don't want to see them done unless there's a damned good reason for it. Just because you can rationalize bringing Data back in some convoluted way doesn't mean it would be a good story.


This is a universe with Q, transporters, cloaked ships, the nexus and many more exotic things floating around everywhere.. I know that is far fetched, but is it anymore far fetched than Genesis? Or Trip becoming a Romulan spy? Or Kirk returning in the Shatnerverse books?

Those are all far-fetched, and the fact that it's been done so many times already is a very good reason not to go back to the same well every single blasted time a character dies.



Doing it through B-4 would be implausible and too obvious to be worthwhile.

I find this statement somewhat incomprehensible -- how can something be simultaneously "obvious" and "implausible"? Aren't obvious things, by nature, plausible?

Missing the point. In general, resurrecting dead sci-fi characters is something that's been done constantly, ad nauseam, so it's the obvious, lazy path to take when it comes to dealing with death in fiction. That's the general case. In this specific case, it is also profoundly implausible for reasons I have spelled out repeatedly and in great detail, and which you are aggressively ignoring. I'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you again, because you obviously aren't even trying to listen.


But, if we're talking plausibility, hanging the reason Data can't be revived on B-4's poor hardware is just plain silly, especially when we're talking about hardware... y'know, the kind of thing that can be upgraded, modified, etc. Hell, if this was TNG season 1, one could just throw a few Bynars at B-4 and then he'll be whatever you want. :-)

Sure, maybe you could make him smarter -- but he still wouldn't be Data. He'd be a smarter B-4 who had access to Data's memories, in the same way that Data had Lal's memories without being Lal.
 
Why do you keep putting Sisko in here with dead characters? Not only did he not die, but he said that he will be coming back. So it's not like the writers suddenly decided to bring him back for no reason, they simply followed along with what was Sisko said to Kassidy. Not only that, but he even said that he could be back yesterday, so the writers could very easily have decided to have him just walk through the door as soon as Kassidy's vision ened and they would not have been viloating canon.
 
But, if we're talking plausibility, hanging the reason Data can't be revived on B-4's poor hardware is just plain silly, especially when we're talking about hardware... y'know, the kind of thing that can be upgraded, modified, etc. Hell, if this was TNG season 1, one could just throw a few Bynars at B-4 and then he'll be whatever you want. :-)
Sure, maybe you could make him smarter -- but he still wouldn't be Data. He'd be a smarter B-4 who had access to Data's memories, in the same way that Data had Lal's memories without being Lal.

I'm honestly not trying to be stubbornly contrarian here, I just don't see this as a terribly convincing argument -- given what we saw of B-4 at the end of Nemesis, you're absolutely right. Also, given what we knew about Spock and McCoy at the end of TWoK, I'd argue that more implausible things have happened.

"There are always possibilities," of course, and all I'm arguing is that it's not much of a stretch to bring Data back via B-4 (as this was clearly the backdoor that Nemesis set up), and arguing that it's "implausible" is just plain silly. Far more ridiculous and silly things have happened, including McCoy keeping Spock's "essence" (not just memories, I guess?) stored away in his head somehow. This is science fiction, and while shooting for internal consistency is certainly a good thing, if there was a reason to bring back Data (which Christopher argues there isn't, and I'm not saying there is), it'd be pretty simple to do.

And I never put Sisko in with dead characters, nor even implied that he died -- he was "off with the Prophets," of course, and I was merely commenting on how and why he was brought back to begin with. I haven't read that far into the DS9 relaunch, so I can't really speak to this point.

Anyway, wow, what a tiresome debate. Sorry if I've pissed anyone off, but it's clear that some here are awfully touchy about this -- Christopher, I've enjoyed your posts on this topic, but disagreeing with you doesn't mean "aggressively ignoring," especially when there are valid criticisms to be levied here.
 
I find this statement somewhat incomprehensible -- how can something be simultaneously "obvious" and "implausible"? Aren't obvious things, by nature, plausible?

Missing the point. In general, resurrecting dead sci-fi characters is something that's been done constantly, ad nauseam, so it's the obvious, lazy path to take when it comes to dealing with death in fiction.

By the way, please pardon the double post but I want to be clear about this particular point -- I find Christopher's argument here to be completely reasonable, and is what I was looking for from the beginning. Bringing a character back from the dead is a lazy path to take when dealing with death in fiction, and, I suggest to Christopher that this is the real rationale for why Data should not be brought back.

All of the nonsense about it being implausible or hard to do narratively is just disingenuous. It's clearly quite easy to do, and that's what I was having difficulty with understanding, as it seemed to be dodging the issue. There are much, much more important reasons to not bring Data back than "B-4's not advanced enough," and those speak to the larger impact Data's death would have on the other characters, the utility of bringing Data back in terms of his character's narrative, etc. It wouldn't take much effort to bring him back in terms of the mechanics of a particular story -- it would take much justification to do so in terms of the writers' rationale for having that character back on the stage at all.

It's that distinction that I was hamhandedly trying to make, and that's where I think this discussion should focus.
 
I'm honestly not trying to be stubbornly contrarian here, I just don't see this as a terribly convincing argument -- given what we saw of B-4 at the end of Nemesis, you're absolutely right. Also, given what we knew about Spock and McCoy at the end of TWoK, I'd argue that more implausible things have happened.

That's different. You keep talking as though one situation can be an exact analogy for another, but that's illogical. Each situation has different circumstances. I've explained repeatedly why the specific details presented to us about B-4 and the memory download work against the notion that B-4 could become Data. I even explained a few posts back why that is not true with regard to Spock's resurrection. That arose naturally from what TWOK set up. However implausible those premises were, the resurrection was a consistent consequence of them. But given what NEM showed us about B-4, the idea of him becoming Data is inconsistent with the onscreen evidence. This is the distinction you're missing. Fiction doesn't have to be consistent with reality, but it should be consistent within itself, within the rules of its own universe. You can start out with an absurd premise as long as the story you tell follows logically from that premise. But if a story contradicts its own internal assumptions, if you set one thing up and then have to reverse it to get what you want, then that's invalid storytelling.

"There are always possibilities," of course, and all I'm arguing is that it's not much of a stretch to bring Data back via B-4 (as this was clearly the backdoor that Nemesis set up), and arguing that it's "implausible" is just plain silly.

Now you're just being rude. There's no point in continuing this conversation. You're clearly not interested in listening, just reasserting your own prejudices and insulting anyone who doesn't share them.



Missing the point. In general, resurrecting dead sci-fi characters is something that's been done constantly, ad nauseam, so it's the obvious, lazy path to take when it comes to dealing with death in fiction.

By the way, please pardon the double post but I want to be clear about this particular point -- I find Christopher's argument here to be completely reasonable, and is what I was looking for from the beginning. Bringing a character back from the dead is a lazy path to take when dealing with death in fiction, and, I suggest to Christopher that this is the real rationale for why Data should not be brought back.

Oh, for crying out loud. I don't need you to "suggest" that to me, because I made that point already in posts #6, 37, 42, and 63 as well as the post you quoted. It's been my core argument from the beginning. And you just now noticed?! Unbelievable. Learn to pay attention before you go around calling other people's ideas "silly" and "disingenuous."
 
Sisko's "end" wasn't a death, however; I always thought it was pretty clear in the episode that he would be coming back eventually, and was surprised when I encountered online people who thought he was actually, irrevocably dead.
*raises hand*

Me, that was me. Over here, me! :)
 
Yikes, I'm more than a little confused as to why Christopher is getting so angry, especially since that last post of mine was explicitly intended to be conciliatory (please note how the first paragraph was, essentially, about how correct Christopher's argument was). I disagree with his assessment of how unlikely it is for B-4 to serve as a vehicle for Data's resurrection.

But, hey, no good deed goes misinterpreted, I suppose. No offense or rudeness was intended.

Apologies?
 
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Yikes, I'm more than a little confused as to why Christopher is getting so angry

Well, I was just reading through the last part of the debate and I was getting angry, on CLB's behalf, esp. when you dismissed his argument as "All of the nonsense..."

Data was my favourite ST character. I miss him. I'd have been happy to see novels where B-4 is developed as a character, esp. if Jeffrey Lang ever wants to do a sequel to "Immortal Coil".

But I don't want a magical way of bringing back original Data and undoing his sacrifice in "Nemesis" either.
 
Oh, some unseen force just happens to spirit Data away at the last second and then not tell anyone? That's lame. It's contrived. Sure, revealing that the simulation of Trip's death was faked is contrived too, but it's acceptable because the simulation itself was so nonsensical that it demanded reinterpretation.

Hm, but who's the judge of what's deemed "nonsensical" and "in demand of reinterpretation"?

I'm not arguing for bringing Data himself back, he's dead, and can't be revived via B4 - although, what about finding a new body for him, like another version of Data/Lore... with the high sophistication of that model's positronic brain and a download of at least Data's knowledge, there could be a chance for some kind of revival. It wouldn't be Data as we knew him, but still. And since the Soong-type androids keep popping up, we already know of 3 models with B4, Data and Lore... and there should be quite a few models in between B4 and Lore after all... anything would be possible. Not that it's plausible, but if one wanted to bring him, or at least part of him and have another android character with Data's prior experiences (kind of a Trill symbiont-like rebirth in fact) back, it would certainly be possible. Or what about Maddox, by the way?!? he should have made quite some progress on his research into positronics in the meantime...

I regret Data's death primarily because of the myriad stories that still could have been told, like his first real command etc. And I would have loved to read these stories. On the other hand, I find it quite interesting that the reset button on his emotion chip wasn't actually addressed in TrekLit. Which would be quite an interesting character story that could yet be told. Or was it perhaps in the ATT-series?!?

Again, I'm not arguing for a resurrection of Data in whatever way and form. That's not the point.

It's rather the fact that the arguments - and the whole "resurrection" of Trip - appear to be a desperate attempt at breathing suspense and some kind of drama into a TV-programme that suffered from poor characterization, contradicting facts and just plainly boring storylines... and the fact that Trip was quite the only character of ENT that had a remotely consistent development and could be sympathized with. Without him ENT would sort of be missing its heart and soul. I guess, bringing him back to life (I know, I know he never died... whatever), albeit through debatable means, was the only way to go once the decision for an ENT-book series was made.
 
since the Soong-type androids keep popping up, we already know of 3 models with B4, Data and Lore... and there should be quite a few models in between B4 and Lore after all... anything would be possible.

Juliana Tainer mentioned three prototypes (in "Inheritance"), and "Nemesis" told us about B-4.

If you've read "Immortal Coil", you'll know that Data had returned to the colony at some point after Juliana's revelation, because those three prototypes (I usually refer to them as B-1, B-2 and B-3), and the android bodies of Lore and Lal, were all stored in Data's lab on the Enterprise-E. But they were very early work, and I doubt much better than B-4.

IIRC, there was mention in another novel that Lore's body was made non-functional in the crash of the Enterprise-D?

what about Maddox, by the way?!? he should have made quite some progress on his research into positronics in the meantime...

He did. That's the plot of "Immortal Coil".
 
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If you've read "Immortal Coil", you'll know that Data had returned to the colony at some point after Juliana's revelation, because those three prototypes (I usually refer to them as B-1, B-2 and B-3), and the android bodies of Lore and Lal, were all stored in Data's lab on the Enterprise. But they were very early work, and I doubt much better than B-4.

I read "Immortal Coil" - but somehow it didn't leave much of an impression... but if in that book Data already retrieved the 3 prototypes Juliana mentioned, wouldn't that contradict NEM and the existance of B4? Was Immortal Coil released prior to NEM? I just looked up the release dates, and they both were released in 2002... but that doesn't say much.

But judging from "Inheritance" and including Lore (if he's included among the 3) and B4, that would still mean that one of the prototypes is missing. *g*

Edit: Ah, okay, ad Maddox. Totally forgot that... :)
 
Or what about Maddox, by the way?!? he should have made quite some progress on his research into positronics in the meantime...
Maddox was also seen in Articles of the Federation arguing against the dismantling of B-4 by the Daystrom Institute, because he had the potential for sentience. The EMH from Voyager was one of his witnesses.
 
I find it quite interesting that the reset button on his emotion chip wasn't actually addressed in TrekLit. Which would be quite an interesting character story that could yet be told. Or was it perhaps in the ATT-series?!?

it was. in the first two books no less.

Data got boring after a while. At least with the EMH there was progress across the series of him becoming more human. All Data did was fart around on the holodeck a few times, and then magically get an emo-chip only for the emo-chip to get pissed away in the very next movie. (much as i love FC, it was crappy that he could turn it on and off and the BQ could switch it on so she could 'seduce' him...)

oh, yeah, and magically acquire a dreaming chip. :rolleyes: which was wasted aside from that cellular peptide frosting nightmare episode.
 
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