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Question regarding Data

I think the reason this comes up is because of the failure of the replacement characters to take off - they have either been douchebags (the chief of security who thankfully got killed/Vulcan councillor) or bland (the new second officer) or just downright punchable (that vulcan science officer).

I don't know about that... there's been a lot of positive response to Jasminder Choudhury and T'Ryssa Chen, if I do say so myself. Also some strong negative response to T'Ryssa from some, but at least that means the character is leaving an impression.
 
You know, I keep coming across this kind of argument in this thread: that since X has been done with a previous character, that's an argument in favor of doing X here as well. To me, as a pro writer, exactly the opposite is true. As writers, we strive not to repeat what's been done before, to find something new and distinctive. The fact that the scenario you describe has been done with Dax is a compelling argument against doing it with Data.

That's a good argument - and I agree with that.

I'm not arguing the fact that doing exactly what was done with Jadzia/Ezri is an option for Data, though. That would practically reek of "deus ex machina" (as it did with Jadzia). I'm just opening up possible storylines that could have been followed in response to your statement that all has been said about Data already. And as pro writers you all could have come up easily with better ideas to bring about some scenario to ensure at least some part of Data survived.

You know, it's not the fact that you're arguing so harshly against any kind of resurrection scenarios regarding Data, because to me, that's not the main issue of our discussion here. Granted, we most likely just have different opinions, but given the choice between Data and the whole of ENT post TATV, I'd say there are way many more interesting stories about Data yet out there than about the ENT-characters. But that's a matter of personal taste.

Your dismissal of Data as a character still worthy of exploration just rubbed me wrong...

I think there's a very good storytelling reason. If TATV had been taken literally, it would mean that the characters' lives remained completely static for a period of six years, encompassing the entire Earth-Romulan War. Any attempt to fill in that gap and cover the war years would've been hamstrung by the need to keep the characters totally rigid and unchanging. Moving the events of TATV back before the war not only resolves certain oddities in the script (oddities that arose from the fact that it was originally meant to take place in 2155 but got hastily and imperfectly pushed forward in the timeline), but it opens the door to allowing real character growth and change during the war years. Which not only provides richer story fodder, but it simply more plausible. Who goes through a war and isn't changed?
In fact, that static portrayal of the characters was my main point of criticism in my review of TATV back when it was aired. But then again... ENT's characterization tended to be very static - just take Trip-T'Pol, they spent nearly 2 years having the same conversation of whether or not to start/continue a relationship. Therefore, I didn't (and still don't) really see any gaping plothole etc. that opened up just because of TATV.

Well, by now you should know that I'm not exactly fond of ENT *because* more often than not the characters didn't think before acting, Archer had a tendency to self-punishment and simply couldn't delegate tasks (and that whiny voice... don't get me started on that!), Reed and Mayweather spent their 4 years on ENT drooling over every alien they encountered and remotely looked female, Hoshi wasn't exactly noteworthy... and T'Pol was the worst of all. I may have managed her emotionalism due to that radiation etc. (although her teary doe-eyed struggle with some or other emotion became tiresome fast), but those massages, that tiptoeing around with Trip... Where Seven somehow managed to retain some kind of dignity despite her being forced into being the Borg-babe, T'Pol just came across as ridiculous.

And quite frankly, I was disgusted at how the writers jumped on the chance to mimic the "war against terrorism" in ENT with Archer's sort of "cowboy-diplomacy" of shooting now and asking questions later. Season 3, especially the beginning, was just painful to watch, especially in the ST-setting where diplomacy and a certain sense of respect for other cultures/species is underlying every action. (If there had been at least some kind of real criticism - not the kind that's pushed aside like it was in reality...) This and the way some kind of sexual innuendo was forced into the Trip/T'Pol-relationship simply felt like a very poor attempt at getting the attention of adolescent males and so at trying to raise the number of viewers...

I'd be interested, though, in the sales numbers of the ENT-books in comparison with the other Trek-series.
 
And quite frankly, I was disgusted at how the writers jumped on the chance to mimic the "war against terrorism" in ENT with Archer's sort of "cowboy-diplomacy" of shooting now and asking questions later. Season 3, especially the beginning, was just painful to watch, especially in the ST-setting where diplomacy and a certain sense of respect for other cultures/species is underlying every action. (If there had been at least some kind of real criticism - not the kind that's pushed aside like it was in reality...)

This is slightly off-topic, but it's interesting how a few years distance and seeing the kinds of things Manny Coto's been arguing for in the past few years (and his work on 24) make it pretty clear what his political stripes are. The guy's barely a shade removed from Joel Surnow's "conservative," American imperialist apologism, and though Manny brought a lot of wonderful TOS elements back into Trek, the Xindi arc (at least the beginning) will always feel like some kind of pro-Bush allegory to me. Which, frankly, has no place in Trek, IMHO.
 
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Hey, I like T'Ryssa. Sure she can be annoying, but the TNG crew can be such a bunch of duds sometimes..she is needed to liven things up.
 
I don't think that's a fair assessment of The Good That Men Do. It was entirely consistent with what we saw in canon; it merely interpreted one highly problematical episode in a way that made it a better, more logical fit with the rest of canon.

Well, that's one person's opinion. :p Myself, I'm more readily accepting of a few simple, localized implausibilities than a complex string of implausibilities operating on a massive scale.

If TATV had been taken literally, it would mean that the characters' lives remained completely static for a period of six years, encompassing the entire Earth-Romulan War. Any attempt to fill in that gap and cover the war years would've been hamstrung by the need to keep the characters totally rigid and unchanging. (...) Who goes through a war and isn't changed?

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I recall no mention of the Romulan War(s) having occured prior to the events of TATV. As for crews remaining static for extended periods of time: I present you the TOS crew. And the TNG crew. And two-thirds of the VOY crew. We've seen it happen many times before: either the crew are happy with where they are serving, or else there simply isn't much room for advancement (for instance, only a limited number of Warp 5 ships in the fleet). And these characters, particularly, who already demonstrated their static tendencies over the four years we did follow them, other than the juvenalia between T'Pol and Tucker.

And quite frankly, I was disgusted at how the writers jumped on the chance to mimic the "war against terrorism" in ENT with Archer's sort of "cowboy-diplomacy" of shooting now and asking questions later. Season 3, especially the beginning, was just painful to watch, especially in the ST-setting where diplomacy and a certain sense of respect for other cultures/species is underlying every action. (If there had been at least some kind of real criticism - not the kind that's pushed aside like it was in reality...)

This is slightly off-topic, but it's interesting how a few years distance and seeing the kinds of things Manny Coto's been arguing for in the past few years (and his work on 24) make it pretty clear what his political stripes are. The guy's barely a shade removed from Joel Surnow's "conservative," American imperialist apologism, and though Manny brought a lot of wonderful TOS elements back into Trek, the Xindi arc (at least the beginning) will always feel like some kind of pro-Bush allegory to me. Which, frankly, has no place in Trek, IMHO.

If the producers' intent was the craft a pro-Bush allegory, then they failed spectacularly. Yes, the first few episodes were harsh to watch, but they needed to be in order to establish the depth of the anger and grief (mirroring post-9/11 America) and to create an (ham-handed, admitedly) 'low' point from which the characters could then progress, insofar as there was character development on that show (and even in the opening episodes, it's worth noting that Reed stood up to Archer's Guantanamo-style tactics). Having set up the parallel, over the course of the season we gradually find it becomes necessary for Archer to question his assumptions about his foe, to evnetually get to know them, and finally make peace with factions amongst the Xindi to come close to preventing a second attack. The lesson here is neither 'stomp all evil-doers', nor a naive 'it's all just a misunderstanding'; it is about the need for an evidence-based approach to foreign policy and criminal investigation, for the bridging of cultural differences and suspicions to establish a mutually beneficial dialogue with the moderate elements of Xindi culture, and with the need for alliances as opposed to unilateral action (since Archer & Co. would never have prevented the attack without getting the Humanoids, Sloths and Aquatics or their side, or without the aid of the Andorians). The point of the Xindi arc was not to deny that conflicts like the War on Terror will arise, but to establish a contrast between the inept handling in real life and Trek's better approach--through diplomacy and cultural cooperation.

Hey, I like T'Ryssa. Sure she can be annoying, but the TNG crew can be such a bunch of duds sometimes..she is needed to liven things up.

That's very much true. I thought she was a bit over the top at times, but it helps to remember that she was originally a crewmember aboard a Luna-class vessel, which tend to be more esoteric (or even the Excalibur); the Enterprise crew are quite likely a reflection of Picard's own command style, always a bit cool and aloof. It was particularly wise an addition when one considers how much emphasis TNG as a series put on notions of potential and opportunity, of making sure those options for growth were always open, but then never actually pursuing any of them. T'Ryssa's sometimes-impulsive, carpe diem attitude is the opposite extreme, and a nice shake-up of an otherwise stolid order... except that it comes at a time when characters like Picard and Crusher are finally are taking their opportunities as well, so I suppose it's part of a more general theme than a counterpoint strictly speaking.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
The point of the Xindi arc was not to deny that conflicts like the War on Terror will arise, but to establish a contrast between the inept handling in real life and Trek's better approach--through diplomacy and cultural cooperation.

Hm, that might have been the point at the end of the arc - but I just would have wished for a different beginning, or at least the use of different expressions. I don't know about you, but hearing in one of my favourite TV-programmes (meaning ST in general now) the same phrases, the same disregard, the same arrogance just physically hurt - especially in the situation back then, when I was really afraid that one man's ill-conceived crusade and black/white opinion of the world, could easily lead to more global consequences.

And honestly, it's not as though the Enterprise could have won the war by herself. I mean, Archer *had* to form alliances, that's not based on some kind of Trek-like approach of cultural cooperation... if he hadn't had to he'd just have blown them out of the sky - Bush could afford to invade Iraq more or less singlehandedly because of the sheer power and size of the US military. It's a different situation entirely.
 
Your dismissal of Data as a character still worthy of exploration just rubbed me wrong...

I would think he was still worthy of exploration if the later movies hadn't steadily regressed him and undone most of his growth. If you could, say, go back in the timeline and pluck out a post-GEN Data who still had an emotion chip irrevocably fused to his neural net, then you'd have somewhere to go. But the later movies pushed the reset button on Data so hard that I just don't see where you could take him from where he was in NEM. His arc in the movies was kind of like "Flowers for Algernon" in reverse and with less coherence -- he starts out an intellectual savant and emotional naif, then has an opportunity to grow into emotional maturity, but then all his emotional and social gains just erode away until he's back where he started.


In fact, that static portrayal of the characters was my main point of criticism in my review of TATV back when it was aired. But then again... ENT's characterization tended to be very static - just take Trip-T'Pol, they spent nearly 2 years having the same conversation of whether or not to start/continue a relationship. Therefore, I didn't (and still don't) really see any gaping plothole etc. that opened up just because of TATV.

I'm not saying it's inconsistent with what came before in the series. I'm saying it's far more limiting for the novelists who have to fill in that gap. I'm saying there was a valid creative reason for the way the decision was made, not just a continuity-based one. It was about giving the novelists the freedom to advance the characters in a way the series failed to do.


just downright punchable (that vulcan science officer).
But Trys is Vulcan, and Vulcans like rough sex....

She would insist that she's not a Vulcan, she's a person who happens to have human and Vulcan genes. Her tastes are her own, and she prides herself on defying stereotypes. (And she likes it playful, but not too rough. She's not someone who takes well to being dominated or restrained.)
 
And honestly, it's not as though the Enterprise could have won the war by herself. I mean, Archer *had* to form alliances, that's not based on some kind of Trek-like approach of cultural cooperation... if he hadn't had to he'd just have blown them out of the sky - Bush could afford to invade Iraq more or less singlehandedly because of the sheer power and size of the US military. It's a different situation entirely.

We know that in retrospect, but Archer went in with exactly the cowboy attitude you describe; he was just the one ship, after all, and didn't know that there would be anybody in the Expanse they might actually recruit to help them. An attitude he could have kept to, albeit with disastrous results; and I don't agree, particularly when it comes to individuals like Degra, that Archer's alliances were only an exercise realpolitik. And the real world situation isn't all that different: certainly the Americans have come to realize they can't conduct two wars on their own, and can't afford to continously snub their allies. Or--it is curious to think, a case of art imitating life--the way the modicrum of stability in we have in Iraq now was achieved by reaching out to the moderate elements of the insurgency and getting them to turn against the extreme Al-Qaeda elements, negotiating with (i.e. paying off) the Sunni tribal chiefs for peace instead of mere 'bring 'em on' mindless violence.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
and I don't agree, particularly when it comes to individuals like Degra, that Archer's alliances were only an exercise realpolitik.

... Well, they were brought about by deception... and the fact that Degra had more integrity than Archer...

No, I'm sorry but I just can't find anything redeeming in Archer's actions during season 3. He was lucky to encounter someone like Degra - but that's not due to his own abilities.
 
See to me Data's bad treatment in the movies is all the more reason to do something with him that actually makes sense.

That whole emotion chip fiasco always rubbed me the wrong way. I always assumed that Data was slowly learning to experience emotions himself. I never bought into the whole 'I can't feel' line, because there were times that showed he obviously was feeling SOMETHING. To me, this would have been the natural way to do it, instead of forcing the emotion chip into the mix..
 
See to me Data's bad treatment in the movies is all the more reason to do something with him that actually makes sense.

Good point. It never struck me that every narrative possibility had been expended with Data, just that the latter seven or so years of him on screen had failed to live up to the previous seven or so.
 
So wouldn't it serve your argument better to answer that question, which you admit should be asked, rather than trying to declare the question insulting and dismissing it?

Given I wasn't one saying that another android should be created, no it wouldn't. I was making an observation of something I found as illogical based on a conversation others were having. Of which the intentions of the question were made clear later, which does make sense.

Besides even if I were making that argument, I don't know how one would answer the question without it being a story idea.
 
See to me Data's bad treatment in the movies is all the more reason to do something with him that actually makes sense.

That whole emotion chip fiasco always rubbed me the wrong way. I always assumed that Data was slowly learning to experience emotions himself. I never bought into the whole 'I can't feel' line, because there were times that showed he obviously was feeling SOMETHING. To me, this would have been the natural way to do it, instead of forcing the emotion chip into the mix..

Data should have become a real asshole as he came to term with his emotions:

"oh data you were wonderful!"

Sure babe, I'll comm you next time I'm in town.. yeah.."

Data becomes a full person and he's a really shitty person. :lol:
 
I don't mind Kadohata. The thing is, I still don't feel like she has answered for her actions in Before Dishonor. Not only did she lead a mutiny against Picard, she also considered torture and almost cheated on her husband.

It has been addressed, yes..but I'm not really buying it. Everybody seems to have forgiven her and forgotten about it REALLY quickly. I haven't though. The character still needs rehab from those incidents.
 
Maybe its not so much they've forgotten about what she's done as personal feelings have been pushed aside due to the crisis? Those types of things typically come back to bite people for quite some time...
 
I guess we are getting really OT here but..

I hope you're right Marie. Greater Than the Sum did a nice job of cleaning up a lot of the Before Dishonor trainwreck, but I still think there should be some serious fallout from it. I guess there was a lot going on in Destiny and not much time to address it. I just hope it is referenced again at some point. Look at the price Leybenzon and T'lana paid for their actions. I don't see why Kadohata should get off so easily, especially since she was the ranking officer involved in it.
 
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