Klingons have honor?

[RobertScorpio]

They go on and on and on about their honor; but as far back as Kor and as recent as TNG I haven't really seen to much that would make me think that Klingons are all that honroable at all...

Gowron was honorable?

Kruge was honorable?

The klingons of TUC were honorable?

Where is this Klingon honor?

Rob
Scorpio

 

[zenophite]

The way trek dealt with the Klingons was incredibly dumb and the more they filled in the Klingon culture in TNG and beyond the more silly it got.

 

[RobertScorpio]

The way trek dealt with the Klingons was incredibly dumb and the more they filled in the Klingon culture in TNG and beyond the more silly it got.

Where do you think they started to go off track and why? What about them would you have done different? I am not a klingon expert, but I have talked with them, while they were in their attire, at several conventions. The hardcore ones I have met dont seem to care for Worf that much at all.

I think somewhere along the way they, the writers, confused Romulans and Klingons. I read somewhere, someway back, that the whole honor thing was going to be the Romulan schtick. But somehow it got transeferred to the Klingons and nutured them...what do you think?

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Chindogu]

It's a matter of cultural perspective and point of view.

Worf is the only regular Klingon that might have Honor, from a Human point of view. And that is only because he viewed the old Klingon legends from a mostly Human perspective, having been raised on Earth. What Picard, and then Ezri, said about him is pretty accurate. In how he was able to fuse the best aspects of Human and Klingon cultural honor.

As for other Klingons, I think the Empire has been rotting away into decay for hundreds of years. Infighting, subterfuge, and politically motivated acts of assassination all seem to be just as prevalent in Klingon politics as it does in the Romulan Empire. If not as devious. The Duras family is a prime example of this. Actually, it makes me wonder if the decay of the Klingon Empire can partially be attributed to outside interference by the Romulans. We saw what they were doing to the Vulcans during Enterprise and later aiding the Duras family in TNG.

Kahless seems to have lived a truely honorable life according to his stories, from a Klingon point of view. Also Martok seemed to be an honorable man, more or less.

Personally, I think the writers were trying to make most Klingons look like hypocrites whenever they boasted about honor. Just to further exemplify how decayed the Empire has gotten.

 

[CommodoreKong]

I've always thought it was stupid that Klingon ships have cloaking devices, it seems like sneaking around with a cloaked ship isn't very honorable.

 

[zenophite]

Where do you think they started to go off track and why? What about them would you have done different? I am not a klingon expert, but I have talked with them, while they were in their attire, at several conventions. The hardcore ones I have met dont seem to care for Worf that much at all.

I think somewhere along the way they, the writers, confused Romulans and Klingons. I read somewhere, someway back, that the whole honor thing was going to be the Romulan schtick. But somehow it got transeferred to the Klingons and nutured them...what do you think?

Rob
Scorpio

IMO the idea they had for a warrior culture went way off track almost from the beginning. In TOS they were sort of wiley sniveling mustache twirlers to a large extent though this can be explained by the human-klingons as explained in ENT. I actually like that they were trying to give the Klingons a more alien culture/appearance from TMP onwards.

Unfortunately the Klingons turned quickly into cartoons. Their culture is basically a sort of cartoon Viking one. Klingons for the most part are portrayed as these sort of large dumb barroom brawler types. From what we've seen of Klingon culture there is absolutely no respect given to non-warrior occupations. I just don't find their culture at all realistic and I don't see how they could have developed into a star-faring civilization.

Trek suffers from this alot actually, the one-note-alien species syndrome where each alien species has generally one singular characteristic without alot of diversity. There have been some efforts to get away from this trend but sadly too few of them.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Where do you think they started to go off track and why? What about them would you have done different? I am not a klingon expert, but I have talked with them, while they were in their attire, at several conventions. The hardcore ones I have met dont seem to care for Worf that much at all.

I think somewhere along the way they, the writers, confused Romulans and Klingons. I read somewhere, someway back, that the whole honor thing was going to be the Romulan schtick. But somehow it got transeferred to the Klingons and nutured them...what do you think?

Rob
Scorpio

IMO the idea they had for a warrior culture went way off track almost from the beginning. In TOS they were sort of wiley sniveling mustache twirlers to a large extent though this can be explained by the human-klingons as explained in ENT. I actually like that they were trying to give the Klingons a more alien culture/appearance from TMP onwards.

Unfortunately the Klingons turned quickly into cartoons. Their culture is basically a sort of cartoon Viking one. Klingons for the most part are portrayed as these sort of large dumb barroom brawler types. From what we've seen of Klingon culture there is absolutely no respect given to non-warrior occupations. I just don't find their culture at all realistic and I don't see how they could have developed into a star-faring civilization.

Trek suffers from this alot actually, the one-note-alien species syndrome where each alien species has generally one singular characteristic without alot of diversity. There have been some efforts to get away from this trend but sadly too few of them.

Yeah..I can see that about them. And Trek's abilty to ruin a promising new alien culture is a specialty. For me? The Hirogen. I thought they were going to be a cool race..and that lasted for about one episode...

Tony Todd must have looked at those other actors playing Hirogens and wondered "did any of you fools even WATCH my episode?"

Rob
Scorpio

 

[THE_FETT]

I've always thought it was stupid that Klingon ships have cloaking devices, it seems like sneaking around with a cloaked ship isn't very honorable.

Yeah it like they're always talking about prowess in combat and all that, but when it's crunch time they sneak around and try to stab you in the back. Cowards. The whole lot of them.

And while we're at it, for all their talk about being logical, if you actually pay attention to the 'abbreviated arguments' onscreen, Vulcans rarely use logic, and when they claim something to be a 'logical' conclusion, it usually is anything but.

 

[THE_FETT]

Tony Todd must have looked at those other actors playing Hirogens and wondered "did any of you fools even WATCH my episode?"

Yeah, this is a problem in Trek. With so many writers, they pick up on cues by other writers that aren't really even there and things tend to go off-track. I think the Ferengi are probably the most glaring example of that.

 

[zenophite]

Yeah it like they're always talking about prowess in combat and all that, but when it's crunch time they sneak around and try to stab you in the back. Cowards. The whole lot of them.

And while we're at it, for all their talk about being logical, if you actually pay attention to the 'abbreviated arguments' onscreen, Vulcans rarely use logic, and when they claim something to be a 'logical' conclusion, it usually is anything but.

Indeed. I've had this conversation a few times before. Vulcan "logic" is really a sort of humanistic philosophy and not really logic at all.

 

[Timo]

Well, "honor" is just a code of behavior, and as such is always specific to a certain society and a certain time. There's nothing universal about it, and thus no good way to define whether a member of an alien society is acting honorably or not. We just have to take their own word for it, which is risky as they of course hurl charges of dishonor at each other for personal gain.

Personally, I've got nothing against the idea of space vikings. Whether they are cartoonish or not is a matter of personal taste; IMHO, the very fact that a diverse set of writers has written a diverse set of characters and actions for the species, to be played by a diverse set of actors, is enough to guarantee that the species can't be one-dimensional. But volume alone doesn't guarantee anything beyond that: cartoons, too, often avoid one-dimensionality by the sheer weight of differing and even conflicting material, but the end result need not be particularly enjoyable or of high dramatic quality.

As for logic, that, too, is culture-specific. Most of the rantings of Earth's logicians are highly dependent on cultural context, and in any case fundamentally dependent on the limited view of universe that our biology allows. Something as basic as "x minus x equals zero" can easily break down when the universe is studied in greater detail.

Thus the very meaning of the word should be allowed to encompass (if not be equated with) "philosophy" or "social structure".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think one of the interesting things about Klingons is that they're not as honorable as they act like they are. Worf and Martok are honorable, but they're exceptions. The original series Klingons weren't honorable, Enterprise's Klingons aren't honorable, and the bulk of TNG Klingons aren't honorable.

I think there's a sense of a corruption of values. Before Enterprise, Klingons valued many occupations as honorable (art could bring honor for example). However, by Enterprise, the warrior caste of Klingons had begun to take over the government and only valued fighting as honorable (their chokehold over the government became so complete by TOS that Kirk referred to the Klingon government simply as a military dictatorship). By TNG, this had become corrupted even further and career politicians like Gowron could exploit this system valuing military victories to hold on to power.

Honestly, I think Klingons are more complex than the initial image of "Space Vikings", but you have to look at everything about them, not just what they seem like on the surface.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I know there are books about the Klingons..but its too bad they didn't do a series set aboard a Klingon ship...that could have been interesting to see..

Rob
scorpio

 

[JuanBolio]

I never much cared for the pseudo-samurai honor things with the Klingons. I much preferred the treacherous, tyrannical bastards from TOS and especially STIII.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If they have rules they are expected to live by, then they have "honor."

That doesn't mean they can't be hypocrites from time to time. They'd be boring any other way.

Worf is a very atypical Klingon. I've always gotten the sense from other Klingons that they are aware at some level of the bs-ness off their "honor" blather, while at the same time also taking it seriously. That sort of complexity is required to make them seem like well rounded characters and not just cardboard cutouts.

 

[THE_FETT]

Well, "honor" is just a code of behavior, and as such is always specific to a certain society and a certain time.

As for logic, that, too, is culture-specific. Most of the rantings of Earth's logicians are highly dependent on cultural context, and in any case fundamentally dependent on the limited view of universe that our biology allows. Something as basic as "x minus x equals zero" can easily break down when the universe is studied in greater detail.

Thus the very meaning of the word should be allowed to encompass (if not be equated with) "philosophy" or "social structure".

Don't buy it. Both words have a recognized meaning. If Vulcans speak to humans about how they're logical then they're talking about the logic that everyone knows about. If they meant philosophy, they'd say philosophy. But they use the word logic which has a specific meaning in philosophy. The writers just obviously don't know how logic actually works and so it comes off as if the Vulcans don't understand logic. Which is no big deal, really who cares since I doubt anyone watches Trek for the philosophical accuracies. But this whole "logic might not mean logic" doesn't work on any level.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Enterprise" did a nice job on this with their "Rura Penthe" episode - the Klingon lawyer was pretty disgusted with the slide of his culture toward giving "honor" a lot of lip service but indulging militarism,corruption and suppression of freedom. Next stop: Kor.

 

[CaptainStoner]

You are mistaking the characteristics of Klingons who were story antagonists and the general character of the culture. Yes they have honor, but beware of stereotypes either way.

 

[THE_FETT]

You are mistaking the characteristics of Klingons who were story antagonists and the general character of the culture. Yes they have honor, but beware of stereotypes either way.

That is actually a really good point.

 

[3D Master]

I'm missing the option; "It comes and goes."