Each time I see Revenge of the Sith...

[indranee]

no, but the fact that his psyche was so caught up with Padme and the slight but clear oedipal complex that went with it that it did become a powerful motivator. he lost his mother twice and I think Lucas did show that his feelings about both women were entangled. it IS a powerful dramatic irony -- any kind of parental motivator. it has been, in almost every mythic story. like any writer worth his salt, GL is aware of that. the problem is (at least one that is apparent to me) that most of the fans aren't.

the reason I like ROTS over every other SW movie is because, despite its obvious flaws, it's an adult, and complex, story.

No. It is not. Even the two early, good Star Wars movies are fairy tales that borrow certain mythic themes and tropes, mix them with the pulp serial sci-fi stylistics, in order to create a fun romp through a fantasy universe. Touching on mythic themes does not adult or complex make. The claim that Anakin had some sort of Oedipal thing going on with Padme is thin. I won't say it's not there, but if it is it's as clumsy and contrived as the rest of the PT. You could claim Obi-Wan is the father Anakin wants to kill - but why does Anakin rebel against Obi-Wan except that the story requires him to so that he and Obi-Wan can eventually have a big fight? Anakin suddenly feeling driven to defeat death and sell his soul to the dark side over a couple of indistinct dreams does not suddenly become more compelling because there was one scene in TPM where Padme happened to be around when Anakin left his mother, and because she's a little bit older than he is. There's nothing maternal about her relationship with him in AotC or RotS, so calling her Jocasta to his Oedipus is a bit of a stretch.

If you want an adult, complex story, read Salman Rushdie, Margaret Atwood or Cormac McCarthy. It's these attempts to make Star Wars something it's not that have undercut what fun there is in the movies. They are pulp, FX extravaganzas for the kid in all of us, and they borrow some solid, old themes because those themes make for good, entertaining stories, and they don't take much effort to write.

I've read all those writers. I am a writer as well, so you're preaching to the choir here.

but yes, I do believe that ROTS -- for all its flaws -- is a much more adult and complex take on Star Wars than any of the other SW films. it shows an intimate relationship that is constructed along the lines of Mythic Pathos. and no matter how clumsily it was portrayed (bad dialogue for one, although that was more in evidence in AOTC), there was definitely an attempt on GL's part to reach beyond the sillier Han and Leia romance or the stupider Luke and Leia flirtation on the OT. the Oedipal theme is not obvious and thank god. but it's there and the handling of it is pretty deft. so you can take it or leave it as a viewer and that's the way it should be.

this is NOT an ancient myth. it doesn't need an anvil to drive home its points. all modern constructs of the myths need to do is wield the lightest touch. anything more is overkill. I believe that ROTS did a good job in displaying a few of those mythic points. for instance, the theme of the triangle -- and there is MORE than a hint of it throughout AOTC and ROTS, no matter what YOU think you saw -- is driven home by plenty of scenes and frames and nuances between the players starting from AOTC.

in terms of political complexity, ROTS held a LOT more of my attention than anything that had gone before in SW. I was never a SW fan despite having seen ALL of the OT films. the PT held my attention despite fits and starts. and ROTS is a virtual cauldron of political maneuverings, some of it laughable but all of it absorbing, including the various personal dynamics.

 

[Seraphim]

Each time I see Revenge of the Sith...

You take a bit of me with you...

 

[Stevil2001]

I want to know when Lucas forgot how to make space battles exciting. The Battle of Yavin is one of the most exciting and tense sequences in cinema, and Hoth and Endor do pretty well themselves. Yet Naboo and Geonosis are all right, and the Coruscant scene just goes on forever, and never rises above tedious. It's hard to explain, but it just lacks some sort of punch. I never felt interested, I never felt like I was doing anything more than watching a movie.

 

[zenophite]

I want to know when Lucas forgot how to make space battles exciting. The Battle of Yavin is one of the most exciting and tense sequences in cinema, and Hoth and Endor do pretty well themselves. Yet Naboo and Geonosis are all right, and the Coruscant scene just goes on forever, and never rises above tedious. It's hard to explain, but it just lacks some sort of punch. I never felt interested, I never felt like I was doing anything more than watching a movie.

Answer: Lucas didn't direct ROTJ

 

[ZZYFRX]

I want to know when Lucas forgot how to make space battles exciting. The Battle of Yavin is one of the most exciting and tense sequences in cinema, and Hoth and Endor do pretty well themselves. Yet Naboo and Geonosis are all right, and the Coruscant scene just goes on forever, and never rises above tedious. It's hard to explain, but it just lacks some sort of punch. I never felt interested, I never felt like I was doing anything more than watching a movie.

Answer: Lucas didn't direct ROTJ

Umm...yes, he did...although Richard Marquand got the final credit. But do some digging and you'll find that they had lots of problems with Marquand who wasn't an experienced enough director to handle a big film like this. So Lucas stepped in to take over the directing, which is why ROTJ had the same suckey tone and awful acting that the entire pre-trilogy had. It was at that point that Lucas's passion for storytelling became overshadowed by his fascination with toys and merchandising.

As for the OP's question about ROTS.....do the math:

Lucas wrote it -- check.
Lucas directed it -- check.

Yep, the movie sucked.

 

[zenophite]

I want to know when Lucas forgot how to make space battles exciting. The Battle of Yavin is one of the most exciting and tense sequences in cinema, and Hoth and Endor do pretty well themselves. Yet Naboo and Geonosis are all right, and the Coruscant scene just goes on forever, and never rises above tedious. It's hard to explain, but it just lacks some sort of punch. I never felt interested, I never felt like I was doing anything more than watching a movie.

Answer: Lucas didn't direct ROTJ

Umm...yes, he did...although Richard Marquand got the final credit. But do some digging and you'll find that they had lots of problems with Marquand who wasn't an experienced enough director to handle a big film like this. So Lucas stepped in to take over the directing, which is why ROTJ had the same suckey tone and awful acting that the entire pre-trilogy had. It was at that point that Lucas's passion for storytelling became overshadowed by his fascination with toys and merchandising.

As for the OP's question about ROTS.....do the math:

Lucas wrote it -- check.
Lucas directed it -- check.

Yep, the movie sucked.

Ah ok well that explains the suck factor in Return of the Jedi too then. Maybe he just let the production crew do their thing for the effects without interfering too much then?

 

[TremblingBluStar]

I want to know when Lucas forgot how to make space battles exciting. .

When the battles became entirely CGI.

Not that I feel CGI battles can't be exciting - the one in Serenity was awesome and that was mostly CGI - but once Lucas got those tools he figured everything had to be BIGGER and LONGER - which meant 15-20 minute battles with absolutely zero tension.

He also lost sight of the fact that if we don't care about the characters, we don't care if they are in danger.

 

[zenophite]

^ not to mention that our heroes turn into a bunch of A-wipes. How can you smile and say "another happy landing" after you just smashed a control tower to dust and just likely killed a few hundred people?

 

[Vonstadt]

Yeah that scene stuck with me too, like whoops sorry about that guys!

 

[Lieut. Arex]

...I wonder why Obi-wan and Anakin don't use the frelling Force to flick those buzz-droids off Kenobi's fighter.

I mean, instead of telling the immobilized R4 to look out, how about lending an astromech a hand, huh?

 

[TremblingBluStar]

^ not to mention that our heroes turn into a bunch of A-wipes. How can you smile and say "another happy landing" after you just smashed a control tower to dust and just likely killed a few hundred people?

Maybe the control towers are all filled with droids.

Or Gungans.

...I wonder why Obi-wan and Anakin don't use the frelling Force to flick those buzz-droids off Kenobi's fighter.

Now, see, it would have not only been common sense, it would have been cool to see him do that!

Or why can't he use the force to pull Anakin away from the freakin' lava! He just sort of stands there and watches him burn alive!

 

[DWF]

Or why can't he use the force to pull Anakin away from the freakin' lava! He just sort of stands there and watches him burn alive!

For one thing he didn't stand there and watch him burn alive and another he allowed the Force to control what happened to Anakin, he was sent there to kill Anakin not to bring him back or save his life.

 

[ancient]

Obi-Wan was a bit of a bastard, just sort of walking away as Anikin was being burned to a crisp. It really would've been a good idea to perform a mercy killing, or maybe try to save him. I mean all his limbs are chopped off! It's not like He'd be a huge threat at that point.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Obi-Wan was a bit of a bastard, just sort of walking away as Anikin was being burned to a crisp. It really would've been a good idea to perform a mercy killing, or maybe try to save him. I mean all his limbs are chopped off! It's not like He'd be a huge threat at that point.

One really doesnt need fingers to perform a force choke, or pull Obi wan closer into the lava...

 

[zenophite]

Obi-Wan was a bit of a bastard, just sort of walking away as Anikin was being burned to a crisp. It really would've been a good idea to perform a mercy killing, or maybe try to save him. I mean all his limbs are chopped off! It's not like He'd be a huge threat at that point.

It would have made more sense if Obi-wan told him something like "i won't kill you because I won't sink to your level, you piece of sith"

anyway teh force was a really neat idea but in the movies there are really no rules set up for you to understand why it is or is not being used. In a sense the force makes the jedi/sith too powerful the way it is shown. At the very least there should be a limit to what can be done. I like to think that because it takes a certain amount of concentration the catch is that you can't concentrate of fully feeling/using the force while you are in the neat of the moment unless you have had ALOT of practice (i.e. Yoda.)

 

[ancient]

Obi-Wan was a bit of a bastard, just sort of walking away as Anikin was being burned to a crisp. It really would've been a good idea to perform a mercy killing, or maybe try to save him. I mean all his limbs are chopped off! It's not like He'd be a huge threat at that point.

One really doesnt need fingers to perform a force choke, or pull Obi wan closer into the lava...

Except that Obi is a powerful force user, and Anikin is...well ALMOST DEAD.

 

[DWF]

Obi-Wan was a bit of a bastard, just sort of walking away as Anikin was being burned to a crisp. It really would've been a good idea to perform a mercy killing, or maybe try to save him. I mean all his limbs are chopped off! It's not like He'd be a huge threat at that point.

One really doesnt need fingers to perform a force choke, or pull Obi wan closer into the lava...

Except that Obi is a powerful force user, and Anikin is...well ALMOST DEAD.

Obi-Wan was nowhere near to being the most powerful Force user ever Yoda, Paplatine, Mace Windu and even Dooku were all more powerful than Kenobi.

 

[zenophite]

Obi-Wan was nowhere near to being the most powerful Force user ever Yoda, Paplatine, Mace Windu and even Dooku were all more powerful than Kenobi.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't make sense for kenobi to be so esteemed he's only been a full fledged jedi for about what 13 years and he is continually getting saved by Anakin? I men Yoda is 900 years old and Mace (going by the actor real ages) is 20+ years older than kenobi. Raw power is nice but experience does teach you a few things - especially in combat/martial arts.

 

[DWF]

Obi-Wan was nowhere near to being the most powerful Force user ever Yoda, Paplatine, Mace Windu and even Dooku were all more powerful than Kenobi.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't make sense for kenobi to be so esteemed he's only been a full fledged jedi for about what 13 years and he is continually getting saved by Anakin? I men Yoda is 900 years old and Mace (going by the actor real ages) is 20+ years older than kenobi. Raw power is nice but experience does teach you a few things - especially in combat/martial arts.

No in the commentary Lucas himself said that by turing to the dark Anakin became a better lightsaber dualist than Obi-Wan, in terms of sheer power Obi-Wan was far from the most powerful, the Midichlorians kind of decide who the powerful Force user is .

 

[zenophite]

No in the commentary Lucas himself said that by turing to the dark Anakin became a better lightsaber dualist than Obi-Wan, in terms of sheer power Obi-Wan was far from the most powerful, the Midichlorians kind of decide who the powerful Force user is .

Well, to be honest relying on commentary to fill in such gaps is just poor storytelling. Besides, does he explain why in an in-universe logic sort of way why that should be so or even make sense? It just seems like more of the same moronisms that seem to come out of him. If all it takes is you go and dark you become a better swordsman - how can the jedi compete against that?