Could Star Trek V been saved?

[DonIago]

I just don't think Our Heroes were ever going to encounter "the" God (kind of a slap in the face to polytheisitc religions); any version of that was likely to end in disappointment. Put another way, I think there was always going to be a "gotcha!"

But the "gotcha!" could have been much, much more interesting than what we got. A Cytherian, Apollo, etc...

 

[CoveTom]

I just don't think Our Heroes were ever going to encounter "the" God (kind of a slap in the face to polytheisitc religions); any version of that was likely to end in disappointment. Put another way, I think there was always going to be a "gotcha!"

But the "gotcha!" could have been much, much more interesting than what we got. A Cytherian, Apollo, etc...

Well, that's what Shatner wanted, though. The real thing. But I agree; that was never getting made.

 

[Yistaan]

I just don't think Our Heroes were ever going to encounter "the" God (kind of a slap in the face to polytheisitc religions); any version of that was likely to end in disappointment. Put another way, I think there was always going to be a "gotcha!"

But the "gotcha!" could have been much, much more interesting than what we got. A Cytherian, Apollo, etc...

There just aren't enough polythestic religions left large enough to significantly affect the box office other than Hinduism, and even then Trek is mainly marketed at a western market (I often repeat how a Chinese friend was completely confused by JJ's "newbie friendly" 2009 film for example).

MAYBE Hinduism and even that credits Brahma for the creation of the universe.

 

[SatrianiRules]

I'm not saying it would have made it better, but I think a better story is at least possible, if they make it the center of the galaxy and find nothing.

One possibility in this context would be that, with no Eden to return to, the characters realize that it's up to them to create a better universe.

A good story would require a lot of other changes , too.

yeah, and that would be similar to what i suggested. They reached the center...and nothing...at that point they could have pivoted the story, maybe putting the onus on Sybok to explain himself...and that might have opened up the can of worms about coercion, deception, marketing, and corruption associated with religious fanatics/cults.

 

[Ssosmcin]

There are countless other ideas they could have gone with but Shatner was dead set on having a antagonist whose hubris made him believe that God himself was communicating with him. He wanted to touch on the Televangelist movement of the day. So any suggestions to "save" Star Trek V would have to stick with his concept because they were never going to veer from that.

Moreover, they weren't going go back and start fresh. So how would you save Star Trek V based on the script they had if you had the opportunity do do another pass before production began?

First, I'd find another way for Kirk to not worry about death than scaling a mountain without ropes. And considering Shatner didn't have a mountain climbers physique, even with ropes it's a hard sell. But if Shatner could swallow his pride for a bit, having Kirk scale a mounting with ropes, realize he's taken on more than he should have but refuse to admit it until his rope brakes, you'd achieve the same effect while keeping a little credibility. Instead of Spock for some reason bringing jet boots camping with him, have Scotty beam him up before he hits ala Trek 2009. He still isn't alone, so he didn't die.

Second, scale back the gags. Cut the camping down a bit, you don't need all the "goodnights." If you MUST use Klingons, give them a good reason for hunting Kirk. I got it: continue the motivation from TVH. "There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives." The Enterprise is being sent to neutral territory, so it's not an act of war. And if it is, they don't care.

Make it clear that Sybok is brainwashing the crew. I can deal with Uhura, Sulu and Chekov turning if it's not a choice.

Sybok is not Spock's brother. He's legitimately a Vulcan revolutionary who embraces emotion. He and Spock were close when Spock was a boy because of his identity confusion. And get into his "God speaks to him" early to give Shatner's idea the spotlight he wanted. Leaving is as a third act twist makes it pointless. And don't make Spock out like he has a choice whether or not to kill the man. But he can hesitate because he's still not 100% back to normal.

Give Scotty a stronger role in the rescue without the pratfall.

Define the alien better. Make it understandable. Sympathetic even. Explain that it sent out waves to telepaths but only a few found their way there and none made it that far. But if there's no choice but to destroy it, make it a harder time than two shots from a BoP when a photon torpedo from the Enterprise couldn't do it. Make it a team effort. The first steps towards cooperation.

In the end, don't go alllll the way back to earth for the song. Do it on the rec room. With everyone. Romulan, Klingons, the crew. It's still corny AF but now has a larger purpose.

And change Kirk's line:

"I had a brother once. I was lucky. I got one of them back."

I cannot take credit for all of these ideas, some were suggested by the comic adaptation and the novelization. But they work well enough.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And don't make Spock out like he has a choice whether or not to kill the man. But he can hesitate because he's still not 100% back to normal.

This is a predicament best avoided altogether. In the age of phasers with stun settings, forcing Spock to use a lethal weapon is the storyteller transparently, needlessly, and ineffectually manipulating the audience in a way that's all downside. No, have Spock ready to shoot a phaser on stun when a henchman stuns Spock first instead.

 

[Ssosmcin]

This is a predicament best avoided altogether. In the age of phasers with stun settings, forcing Spock to use a lethal weapon is the storyteller transparently, needlessly, and ineffectually manipulating the audience in a way that's all downside. No, have Spock ready to shoot a phaser on stun when a henchman stuns Spock first instead.

Well with phasers confiscated, he picked up the only weapon he had. Which made sense to me. But since the Vulcan heart ain't where ours is, Spock could have shot him in the chest and not killed him. But Sybok was smart. He pressed his chest right up to it. Those rock guns made of pipes probably backfire easily. Sure, Spock could have kneecapped him, but I like the idea of Spock hesitating due to his prior relationship and his own lack of full stability. Or just cut the scene a second quicker and Sybok snatches the weapon too fast for Spock to fire.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well with phasers confiscated, he picked up the only weapon he had. Which made sense to me. But since the Vulcan heart ain't where ours is, Spock could have shot him in the chest and not killed him. But Sybok was smart. He pressed his chest right up to it. Those rock guns made of pipes probably backfire easily. Sure, Spock could have kneecapped him, but I like the idea of Spock hesitating due to his prior relationship and his own lack of full stability.

We're rewriting, so we're not constrained by the plot as it stands. I was addressing character issues, which I believe are extraordinarily ill-served all around by this scene, as it stands in the film, without exception to any character present, but especially both Kirk and Spock, with respect to whom it matters the most.

Or just cut the scene a second quicker and Sybok snatches the weapon too fast for Spock to fire.

If this gets poorly executed or edited, the scene is a loser in this case as well.

 

[InLoveWithJimKirk]

We're rewriting, so we're not constrained by the plot as it stands. I was addressing character issues, which I believe are extraordinarily ill-served all around by this scene, as it stands in the film, without exception to any character present, but especially both Kirk and Spock, with respect to whom it matters the most.


If this gets poorly executed or edited, the scene is a loser in this case as well.

The special effects were weak, sure, but that can be remedied these days if TPTB cared -- which we know they Just. Do. Not.

The more we pull at the many weak and frazzled threads of STV, the harder it becomes to redeem. I try to accept it as it is (which can be hard for fans who have spent decades invested in these characters). If Sybok had been treated as a dangerous meglomaniac and not have Spock so emotionally compromised by his reappearance, the last act could have been very powerful. Instead of a glowing alien freak, instead they find NOTHING. A complete letdown (but the big 3 three expect this, don't they?) It then becomes less about searching for God and more about compulsion and a dangerous cult-like charisma -- in line with Shatner's televangest theme. Now they must deal with a sick VULCAN who is mentally unbalanced and uses his psychic powers to manipulate others to his will. There was a REASON he was banished and exiled from Vulcan. Now we have a dangerous threat to overcome, a 'villian' our heroes must vanquish.

And that Barrier -- they have experience with it, really BAD experience a la Gary Mitchell, which could have been used somehow to help to additionally hinder our heroes. At least it should be mentioned as a complication or fear or something else with which they must cope.

I agree that much more could be done with the 3 diplomatic hostages. Having the three powers work together to recover their people would be another challenge to overcome.

I guess I forgive Kirk rock climbing with no gear -- what? I can't help it, he's Jim Kirk -- but that could have easily been cushioned by Spock acknowledging that he is spotting him with those jet boots. Which of course he was.

The soundtrack is glorious.

I remember noticing the awkward brother thing when I saw it in the theater. It is true that only obsessed fans like me would care about that. I think I retconned it in my head because Kirk did NOT say, "I lost My brother once" -- the more general 'a' gives us some interpretative room there. Yes, Sam was lost years ago and has nothing to do with the movie. It is pretty clear that Kirk sees Spock (and McCoy) as brothers of his heart and he even says so when we talks about having family after all.

I wish Shatner had been less ambitious with his theme, but we are talking about Shatner here, and while I love the guy, he IS Shatner.

 

[Yistaan]

Once they started calling him "God", any idea that the movie would get near the themes needed was going to hit pushback from the studios or audience. The Matrix movies did the "God is evil" better by calling him the Architect and then basically proceeding from there.

 

[PCz911]

A Star Trek take on religious cults had been done before. Shatners fundamental idea just wasn’t unique. Pity, because he’s written (concepted?) quite a few story ideas in his various novels. Wonder why this particular idea resonated so much to him.

 

[CoveTom]

A Star Trek take on religious cults had been done before. Shatners fundamental idea just wasn’t unique. Pity, because he’s written (concepted?) quite a few story ideas in his various novels. Wonder why this particular idea resonated so much to him.

It's a good question. Shatner says that the idea was inspired by the rash of televangelist con artists who were especially prominent at the time. And I get that, and I can see Trek making a comment on that. However, I'm not sure how that has to turn in to the Enterprise searching for the actual, real God.

 

[FreddyE]

As far as I am concerned V is a "saved version" of an even more "out there" idea they had... I don´t remember in which book I read that...but it had lots of exposés and scrapped ideas.

The idea was that they meet a "thing" that has been sent by some alien race to lay down "the law of the universe" every few thousand years. The thing keeps transforming into characters Kirk does not recognise until it transforms into Jesus who asks "Do you know me?" and Kirk says something to the effect of "Yes...now I do know you. But we do not need you anymore"...after which "Jesus" starts to bleed and then gets destroyed.

Totally weird...and the bible belt would have imploded....

 

[Ssosmcin]

As far as I am concerned V is a "saved version" of an even more "out there" idea they had... I don´t remember in which book I read that...but it had lots of exposés and scrapped ideas.

The idea was that they meet a "thing" that has been sent by some alien race to lay down "the law of the universe" every few thousand years. The thing keeps transforming into characters Kirk does not recognise until it transforms into Jesus who asks "Do you know me?" and Kirk says something to the effect of "Yes...now I do know you. But we do not need you anymore"...after which "Jesus" starts to bleed and then gets destroyed.

Totally weird...and the bible belt would have imploded....

I actually like that core idea. It got diluted way down into "one voice - many faces." But the idea that God was an entity that came by civilizations at intervals but looked different images to match the changing depictions was interesting. It carried more depth than the "Oh it has to be an alien pretending to be God" that I believe Roddenberry suggested in his scathing notes, which I'm sure was at least partially fueled by his resentment that Shatner got his God movie approved but Gene never could.

It was a problematic vision molded by a series of compromises.

 

[PCz911]

Since we’re in the world of counterfactuals, may I pose a question?

Shatner is obviously a great physical actor. Why wouldn’t he play up to his strengths and have an “action” oriented movie given how well Wrath did in theaters? Why wouldn’t he play he pivot to more of a “statement” theme (aka the power of fake evangelists )?

 

[fireproof78]

Since we’re in the world of counterfactuals, may I pose a question?

Shatner is obviously a great physical actor. Why wouldn’t he play up to his strengths and have an “action” oriented movie given how well Wrath did in theaters? Why wouldn’t he play he pivot to more of a “statement” theme (aka the power of fake evangelists )?

Because the studio wanted a comedy and Shatner tried to have it both ways.