I just wish they would just call it EarthDate instead of StarDate (e.g. Caleb Mir: Stardate 2314).
Just call it EarthDate & be done with it, we know you're using our Earth Standard Gregorian Calender system, just be honest about it.
Spoilers Star Trek: Starfleet Academy 1x04 – “Vox in Excelso”
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Just call it EarthDate & be done with it, we know you're using our Earth Standard Gregorian Calender system, just be honest about it.
Hm, I think I had too high expectations of this one, created by some of the early review hype. There’s many individual scenes and ideas I really liked — Jay-Den’s brother, the idea that Jay-Den hates public speaking, the surprisingly intimate (and hopefully not just “queerbait-y”) moment when Darem came to help Jay-Den, Ake’s friendship (and more?) with Obel — but all in all I found it a bit lame and unengaging.
I never vibed with the whole Klingon honor schtick, and unfortunately this episode didn’t really manage to escape it, or present it in a way that makes sense to me as a viewer. I can’t pretend I had much sympathy with a people that would rather go extinct than accepting freely available help just because they are too proud and bound by some non-sensical warrior code. The whole solution with engaging in a sort of mock battle with the remaining Klingon refugees didn’t work very well for me. Although it probably tracks with how Klingon’s covertly betraying their code was previously portrayed. Jay-Den’s family being alive in the end somehow felt unearned and dramatically anticlimactic. But I like how this brought Jay-Den and Caleb closer in the end, although I can’t really claim to understand what Jay-Den’s problem really was with Caleb. Maybe I will get it on a rewatch.
Also, I’m not sure I buy the explanation given for why Caleb is apparently a Master Debater. And I know that’s probably asking a bit much, but I wish they would have been able to create debate speeches with actual arguments you could follow as a viewer, not just this constant citing of precedent and stardates. It made it all feel very shallow.
I never vibed with the whole Klingon honor schtick, and unfortunately this episode didn’t really manage to escape it, or present it in a way that makes sense to me as a viewer. I can’t pretend I had much sympathy with a people that would rather go extinct than accepting freely available help just because they are too proud and bound by some non-sensical warrior code. The whole solution with engaging in a sort of mock battle with the remaining Klingon refugees didn’t work very well for me. Although it probably tracks with how Klingon’s covertly betraying their code was previously portrayed. Jay-Den’s family being alive in the end somehow felt unearned and dramatically anticlimactic. But I like how this brought Jay-Den and Caleb closer in the end, although I can’t really claim to understand what Jay-Den’s problem really was with Caleb. Maybe I will get it on a rewatch.
Also, I’m not sure I buy the explanation given for why Caleb is apparently a Master Debater. And I know that’s probably asking a bit much, but I wish they would have been able to create debate speeches with actual arguments you could follow as a viewer, not just this constant citing of precedent and stardates. It made it all feel very shallow.
Possibly the weakest of the four episodes so far, but still some interesting developments. Klingons are down to 8 Houses, Ake is the new Klingon Presidents ex-booty call - unless I missed something, does this mean that Thok's House is one of the surviving eight too?
Oh, yes, and Master Debater - I see what you did there, writers.
EDIT: The shape of the atrium did seem to be shown at the top of the Neck (Hilt, Academy) Section, and I don't think Rork was on the Maim Bridge later on, so Rork got command of the Academy Drive?
Oh, yes, and Master Debater - I see what you did there, writers.
EDIT: The shape of the atrium did seem to be shown at the top of the Neck (Hilt, Academy) Section, and I don't think Rork was on the Maim Bridge later on, so Rork got command of the Academy Drive?
Haven't watched it yet, but the Klingons lost Qo'noS because of the Burn, they're refugees, and they gain a new place to live after a battle that satisfies their honor. That about the size of it?
Either that or it just doesn’t exist anymore, I don't think we know yet. She mentioned in “Kids These Days” that the house of her mother is called Dak'Hatas, but the way she worded it didn’t make clear whether it was a house past or present.
I’m not sure I do. Googling it it’s apparently a catchphrase from a South Park episode. Is that what you — and possibly the writers — are referring to with that?
Really? I didn’t notice that. What do I have to look out for when I rewatch the episode?
I wonder if that structure we’re seeing here is a secondary bridge on top of the “hilt” there …
This was just a very cool SFX shot …
Im really trying to like this....
Anyway, i hope eventually we will see more interesting/alien architecture, nature and wildlife from the cadets different homeworlds before/after the burn. Everything feels very enclosed and small.
Anyway, i hope eventually we will see more interesting/alien architecture, nature and wildlife from the cadets different homeworlds before/after the burn. Everything feels very enclosed and small.
This is another episode, like episode 2, where I like the premise but the execution is just off. It's somewhere between a 6 or 7 for me I guess.
I'm not even going to try to understand the pedagogy of this school or its curriculum, I guess in the future they just decide to go with the Socratic method of having people learn whatever is on the mind of whoever is teaching them that day rather than having any particular classes. So today is debate day because they want that to frame the episode, fine. It's just that the way they presented the debates wasn't really interesting. Like they tell us Caleb is good, but only because he spouts facts well, but that's not how Jay-Den "wins" later in the episode so... what was the whole lesson of the debate class?
This debate framing may have worked better if it was against the War College and whatever ethos they have, or in front of a group of officers who were making decisions and were being challenged for their benevolent paternalistic racism... but he just gives the speech in front of some cadets and Ake.
Yes he's technically still arguing against Caleb's point, but it's not like Caleb's point was even wrong or something that could be argued against. If the debate was about the Federation being ignorant and racist in its approach to diplomacy, then yeah, it'd make way more sense. Not "the Federation should help people"... which is an entirely different debate altogether.
It's like someone wrote a Star Trek episode and then shoehorned in some school bullshit because it's called Starfleet Academy and not Star Trek: Discovery Even Harder.
It makes even less sense when it seems like everyone, including the other Klingon in the room who they show IS perceptive and understands what Jay-Den's father did for him - somehow miss the obvious "Vulcan Hello" answer that the writers choreograph from the very beginning when they say they won't take a planet offered to them for free. Like... I know this is the Netflix era and you just have to tell people exactly what's happening all the time and while this isn't as bad as Stranger Things Season 5, it's annoying because it undermines the characters when they tell the audience the problem and how to solve it, but the characters don't realize the very solution that's right in front of them.
My other issue is that the way Klingons are written feels so inconsistent or at least makes no logical sense, but that may be a problem I have with Klingons in general. Why wouldn't a warrior culture who goes to war all the time value people who can heal wounds? Let alone use technology to cure wounds? It's the problem that Trek always has and although once in a while they try to address it with a random Klingon scientist, it just makes the entire culture look dumb. If they truly wanted to fend for themselves, how are they keeping their ships working? Where did they get dilithium from after the Burn if not take handouts from the Federation when they were offering it to everyone?
I admittedly don't like the Klingons and always found them kind of dull even during the DS9 years (Worf's relationship with Alexander is such bullshit and I do find it weird that people are okay with Worf being a piece of shit to his son just because they hate the Alexander character), so that colours my reception to any Klingon story... but where the father letting his son go is meant to be some kind of act of love, it just makes the entire society feel so shitty. Like a father who can't say that he loves his gay son because he's so fundamentally homophobic so decides to abandon him in front of a queer support group while he drives away or something equally absurd. I don't see that as a "good" ending, but Klingons are always going to frustrate me I guess.
The overall premise is fine... the fake battle as the solution, while obvious, is fine. Jay-Den's speech - remember when this was a debate class and not a speech class? The writers seemed to forget - was fine too. I actually like the character relationships being developed in the episode, even douchebro Darem. It's just wrapped together in a package that isn't really satisfying and again, didn't need to be almost an hour long.
I dunno, I'm not sure if I'm being overly harsh or nitpicky. I don't even care about the 20th century vernacular anymore, like it bothers me but it's the least of my problems with the episode. Each of these episodes feel like they needed more passes to work out some of these issues... even if they're "made for kids" or whatever that means in terms of the impact on their quality.
I'm not even going to try to understand the pedagogy of this school or its curriculum, I guess in the future they just decide to go with the Socratic method of having people learn whatever is on the mind of whoever is teaching them that day rather than having any particular classes. So today is debate day because they want that to frame the episode, fine. It's just that the way they presented the debates wasn't really interesting. Like they tell us Caleb is good, but only because he spouts facts well, but that's not how Jay-Den "wins" later in the episode so... what was the whole lesson of the debate class?
This debate framing may have worked better if it was against the War College and whatever ethos they have, or in front of a group of officers who were making decisions and were being challenged for their benevolent paternalistic racism... but he just gives the speech in front of some cadets and Ake.
Yes he's technically still arguing against Caleb's point, but it's not like Caleb's point was even wrong or something that could be argued against. If the debate was about the Federation being ignorant and racist in its approach to diplomacy, then yeah, it'd make way more sense. Not "the Federation should help people"... which is an entirely different debate altogether.
It's like someone wrote a Star Trek episode and then shoehorned in some school bullshit because it's called Starfleet Academy and not Star Trek: Discovery Even Harder.
It makes even less sense when it seems like everyone, including the other Klingon in the room who they show IS perceptive and understands what Jay-Den's father did for him - somehow miss the obvious "Vulcan Hello" answer that the writers choreograph from the very beginning when they say they won't take a planet offered to them for free. Like... I know this is the Netflix era and you just have to tell people exactly what's happening all the time and while this isn't as bad as Stranger Things Season 5, it's annoying because it undermines the characters when they tell the audience the problem and how to solve it, but the characters don't realize the very solution that's right in front of them.
My other issue is that the way Klingons are written feels so inconsistent or at least makes no logical sense, but that may be a problem I have with Klingons in general. Why wouldn't a warrior culture who goes to war all the time value people who can heal wounds? Let alone use technology to cure wounds? It's the problem that Trek always has and although once in a while they try to address it with a random Klingon scientist, it just makes the entire culture look dumb. If they truly wanted to fend for themselves, how are they keeping their ships working? Where did they get dilithium from after the Burn if not take handouts from the Federation when they were offering it to everyone?
I admittedly don't like the Klingons and always found them kind of dull even during the DS9 years (Worf's relationship with Alexander is such bullshit and I do find it weird that people are okay with Worf being a piece of shit to his son just because they hate the Alexander character), so that colours my reception to any Klingon story... but where the father letting his son go is meant to be some kind of act of love, it just makes the entire society feel so shitty. Like a father who can't say that he loves his gay son because he's so fundamentally homophobic so decides to abandon him in front of a queer support group while he drives away or something equally absurd. I don't see that as a "good" ending, but Klingons are always going to frustrate me I guess.
The overall premise is fine... the fake battle as the solution, while obvious, is fine. Jay-Den's speech - remember when this was a debate class and not a speech class? The writers seemed to forget - was fine too. I actually like the character relationships being developed in the episode, even douchebro Darem. It's just wrapped together in a package that isn't really satisfying and again, didn't need to be almost an hour long.
I dunno, I'm not sure if I'm being overly harsh or nitpicky. I don't even care about the 20th century vernacular anymore, like it bothers me but it's the least of my problems with the episode. Each of these episodes feel like they needed more passes to work out some of these issues... even if they're "made for kids" or whatever that means in terms of the impact on their quality.
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I wouldn't expect much on that end, sadly, as past experience has shown that they operate on a small scale, even when there is a galactic threat.
There is a decline in writing across the board, not just in Star Trek. There are times when something exemplary comes along, like, for me, that was Sinners from last year. This is the first year in my life when very little in entertainment interests me. Even things that I once enjoyed, like the Boys, I expect to be disappointed with.
Surely that's it, considering South Park is also on Paramount+. It's definitely a crossover!I’m not sure I do. Googling it it’s apparently a catchphrase from a South Park episode. Is that what you — and possibly the writers — are referring to with that?
Say it really quickly.
Mass (de) bator
There was famously and incorrectly a character in a kids TV show in the UK called Master Bates.
Yes, I find myself in agreement with all of this. Thanks for the eloquence.
From what I got, it was a mock "battle" on both sides so...
...and six months later Faan Alpha explodes from internal geothermal instability...
Oops.
But I jest.
I wonder what will grow from this space seed.
Oops.
But I jest.
I wonder what will grow from this space seed.
I gave it a generous 8.
I thought the episode was good. It did exactly what I want the series to do: it gave us interesting world-building and focused on the characters. it also avoided too many silly moments and high school drama. But it never rose to the "wow, that was amazing" level.
Good:
I appreciate that we got some good backstory on Kraag and the Klingons post-burn. We got lots of good character moments. The flashbacks between Kraag and his brother were good. Seeing how he decided to join Starfleet was nice. I liked the pep talk that Lura gives Kraag. The debate was well done but too quick and never had a chance to really ponder the arguments. We also got some nice little memberberries like the Doctor referencing gaining his sentient rights on VOY using the power of words and debate and also quoting the line from Satie that Picard quotes in The Drumhead.
I thought the resolution made perfect sense. It was pretty obvious to me that since the Klingons are a warrior culture that they needed to conquer Faan Alpha. So the Federation needs to give it to them in a way that makes it look like the Klingons took it in battle, in order to keep their honor. The way the episode did it was satisfying.
Nitpicks:
I don't like Ake using the term "chancellor's address" instead of 'captain's log". An address is something very specific. It is a formal speech. A diary entry is not an address. So saying "chancellor's address" instead of "captain's log" does not make sense since it is using the wrong word.
Also, the "master debater" joke was a bit lame.
I think there was a real missed opportunity not to reference Worf since he was also a Klingon in Starfleet Academy who struggled with his identity and feeling like he is from two worlds.
I thought the episode was good. It did exactly what I want the series to do: it gave us interesting world-building and focused on the characters. it also avoided too many silly moments and high school drama. But it never rose to the "wow, that was amazing" level.
Good:
I appreciate that we got some good backstory on Kraag and the Klingons post-burn. We got lots of good character moments. The flashbacks between Kraag and his brother were good. Seeing how he decided to join Starfleet was nice. I liked the pep talk that Lura gives Kraag. The debate was well done but too quick and never had a chance to really ponder the arguments. We also got some nice little memberberries like the Doctor referencing gaining his sentient rights on VOY using the power of words and debate and also quoting the line from Satie that Picard quotes in The Drumhead.
I thought the resolution made perfect sense. It was pretty obvious to me that since the Klingons are a warrior culture that they needed to conquer Faan Alpha. So the Federation needs to give it to them in a way that makes it look like the Klingons took it in battle, in order to keep their honor. The way the episode did it was satisfying.
Nitpicks:
I don't like Ake using the term "chancellor's address" instead of 'captain's log". An address is something very specific. It is a formal speech. A diary entry is not an address. So saying "chancellor's address" instead of "captain's log" does not make sense since it is using the wrong word.
Also, the "master debater" joke was a bit lame.
I think there was a real missed opportunity not to reference Worf since he was also a Klingon in Starfleet Academy who struggled with his identity and feeling like he is from two worlds.
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I wanted to give this a 9 bc it hit a lot of emotional high points for me but in the end it'd have to be a 7... ehh okay 8. I really enjoyed the episode (but I always enjoy the Kilngon ones, so...) so that gets an 8.
Also, there was no mention of Judge Satie's fate after the unfortunate incident on TNG... should there have been?
Also, there was no mention of Judge Satie's fate after the unfortunate incident on TNG... should there have been?
I’ll have to rewatch, but wasn’t that an actual address as opposed to a log entry? It seemed like she was specifically speaking to all cadets.
Well, the doctor quotes Judge Aaron Satie, Norah Saties’s father. So since there was no unfortunate incident with him on The Next Generation, they didn’t need to mention anything.
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