Code Of Honor: What Do You Think?

[cgervasi]

Prime Directive doesn't apply.

They have warp, and they have formal communications with the Federation Council that allows for free trade and humanitarian aid. If Picard is an ass, they can go over his his head and tattle to his bosses on Earth.

My understanding of the Prime Directive is they cannot interfere in another country's affairs. If the society is not aware of other planets, they have to hide that knowledge because that knowledge itself would be interference. If the society does not have warp drive, they cannot give them warp drive or things that would require warp drive because any interactions with them would be exploitative, according to the theory anyway. Once they have warp drive, they cross an arbitrary line where Federation citizens can interact with them however they like, as long as they respect the society's authorities. If they have warp drive but are not Federation members, my understanding is the Prime Directive forces Federation citizens to obey local laws.

 

[Guy Gardener]

My understanding of the Prime Directive is they cannot interfere in another country's affairs. If the society is not aware of other planets, they have to hide that knowledge because that knowledge itself would be interference. If the society does not have warp drive, they cannot give them warp drive or things that would require warp drive because any interactions with them would be exploitative, according to the theory anyway. Once they have warp drive, they cross an arbitrary line where Federation citizens can interact with them however they like, as long as they respect the society's authorities. If they have warp drive but are not Federation members, my understanding is the Prime Directive forces Federation citizens to obey local laws.

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet Regulation, not a law, if you're not in uniform you're not obliged to consider it.

 

[korblborp]

Not sure I want that image in my head.

it made me think of tovera and the lizard man in the RCN series...

 

[Laughing Dragon]

To add more:

Also, the supposed Sexism - I would like to expand more - Yes, Yar was seen as an object to claim but women fighting instead of males can be seen as progressive and then women can transfer their goods and valuables to another man. Having goods and valuables at all would be progressive alone in some earth centuries. Hell, they knew of space travel like it was nothing. They were already apart of the federation of planets I would say. Look at Wakanda combining old rituals and even attire with a technologically advanced society. It was not perfect, but I don't think it was near as bad as being said. There are still African tribes that even engage in old tradition and rituals. Should they be erased as lesser?

 

[Skipper]

To add more:

Also, the supposed Sexism - I would like to expand more - Yes, Yar was seen as an object to claim but women fighting instead of males can be seen as progressive and then women can transfer their goods and valuables to another man. Having goods and valuables at all would be progressive alone in some earth centuries. Hell, they knew of space travel like it was nothing. They were already apart of the federation of planets I would say. Look at Wakanda combining old rituals and even attire with a technologically advanced society. It was not perfect, but I don't think it was near as bad as being said. There are still African tribes that even engage in old tradition and rituals. Should they be erased as lesser?

It's not just that. We have Troi asking Tasha (both supposedly professionals), in a dire situation with millions of lives at stake and their immediate superior present, how hot she thinks her captor is. A question that has absolutely no bearing on the situation. If Tasha thought he was hideous or gorgeous it wouldn't have changed anything for the millions waiting for the vaccine.

It was the writers' way of saying, "See women? Even so-called 'professionals', as soon as they see something they like, immediately turn into two giggling high schoolers exchanging notes about which guy is the hottest. They can't separate what they feel from what needs to be done, unreliable!".

Imagine what would happen if a journalist asked a freed female hostage from Hamas, "Yeah, okay, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you like your captors? Any spicy details you want to share with our readers?" It's not "Cancel Culture" or "You can't say anything anymore!!!". It's simple decency.

 

[jaime]

It's not just that. We have Troi asking Tasha (both supposedly professionals), in a dire situation with millions of lives at stake and their immediate superior present, how hot she thinks her captor is. A question that has absolutely no bearing on the situation. If Tasha thought he was hideous or gorgeous it wouldn't have changed anything for the millions waiting for the vaccine.

It was the writers' way of saying, "See women? Even so-called 'professionals', as soon as they see something they like, immediately turn into two giggling high schoolers exchanging notes about which guy is the hottest. They can't separate what they feel from what needs to be done, unreliable!".

Imagine what would happen if a journalist asked a freed female hostage from Hamas, "Yeah, okay, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you like your captors? Any spicy details you want to share with our readers?" It's not "Cancel Culture" or "You can't say anything anymore!!!". It's simple decency.

See, I read that scene as inappropriate locker room talk like stereotypical guys would have. And in the weird horny world of TNG series one, it’s barely out of place. (Klingon sex kitten on the bridge? Q, you shouldn’t have, but we shouldn’t be surprised that you did…)

 

[Skipper]

See, I read that scene as inappropriate locker room talk like stereotypical guys would have. And in the weird horny world of TNG series one, it’s barely out of place. (Klingon sex kitten on the bridge? Q, you shouldn’t have, but we shouldn’t be surprised that you did…)

In the scene Deanna asks Tasha this question as if it were of the utmost importance, but it had no bearing whatsoever on the situation they were in. Tasha's life was in danger (remember, she had just been challenged to a duel to the death). She was also a prisoner against her will, and millions of people were at risk if vaccines were not obtained. If you remember the scene, it wasn't a question asked to lighten the situation, it was asked in the middle of a serious conversation, as if the guy's hotness was an important fact.

But as I said, in that particular context, it was completely irrelevant. What would have changed in practice if she had found him attractive or not? Even if, ironically, she had been madly in love with him and decided to stay there forever, it was something to be resolved after the fight, when more pressing issues had been resolved.

And again, it was a deeply offensive question in that context. Tasha was a prisoner, in a political machination where her life was at risk. But let's say that, by some odd chance, due to some unresolved trauma, Tasha, in some recesses of her subconscious, found some aspects of the kidnapping intriguing:

1) It's obvious that Tasha rationally understood how wrong the situation was and what was at stake.
2) Troi starts to discuss Tasha's fetishes right there, in that context in front of the captain?!?

It implicates that the female security chief who spent her childhood running from "rape gangs" secretly enjoys being kidnapped.

 

[jaime]

In the scene Deanna asks Tasha this question as if it were of the utmost importance, but it had no bearing whatsoever on the situation they were in. Tasha's life was in danger (remember, she had just been challenged to a duel to the death). She was also a prisoner against her will, and millions of people were at risk if vaccines were not obtained. If you remember the scene, it wasn't a question asked to lighten the situation, it was asked in the middle of a serious conversation, as if the guy's hotness was an important fact.

But as I said, in that particular context, it was completely irrelevant. What would have changed in practice if she had found him attractive or not? Even if, ironically, she had been madly in love with him and decided to stay there forever, it was something to be resolved after the fight, when more pressing issues had been resolved.

And again, it was a deeply offensive question in that context. Tasha was a prisoner, in a political machination where her life was at risk. But let's say that, by some odd chance, due to some unresolved trauma, Tasha, in some recesses of her subconscious, found some aspects of the kidnapping intriguing:

1) It's obvious that Tasha rationally understood how wrong the situation was and what was at stake.
2) Troi starts to discuss Tasha's fetishes right there, in that context in front of the captain?!?

It implicates that the female security chief who spent her childhood running from "rape gangs" secretly enjoys being kidnapped.

Yup. Clumsy and overtly sexualised. But that’s TNG series one. (And not just series one… Riker and Troi are regularly subject to all sorts in particular, and then there’s Sub Rosa… )
Basically, I don’t think it comes over as any of the -ists it could be, because of the wider context of Trek and TNG. If that was Riker kidnapped there by some Amazonian space ladies, I doubt the conversation would have gone much differently.
(Edit: and to avoid any doubt, yes, I am referring to Angel One, another episode touched by the hand of The Great Bird of the Galaxy’s Dream. Soggy ones.)

I’m not saying it’s any good of course. The whole ‘rape gangs’ thing on Tasha’s home colony was thrown in without any thought beyond 80s SF Dystopia Tropes 101, and makes all sorts of things harder to square. When we later see Turkana IV it’s been toned down, and is very much that 80s failed SF state 101. And it never looks as interesting as it did in Tashas hallucinated version of it.
Clumsy. But not… malign.

 

[Qonundrum]

Yup. Clumsy and overtly sexualised. But that’s TNG series one. (And not just series one… Riker and Troi are regularly subject to all sorts in particular, and then there’s Sub Rosa… )
Basically, I don’t think it comes over as any of the -ists it could be, because of the wider context of Trek and TNG. If that was Riker kidnapped there by some Amazonian space ladies, I doubt the conversation would have gone much differently.

I’m not saying it’s any good of course. The whole ‘rape gangs’ thing on Tasha’s home colony was thrown in without any thought beyond 80s SF Dystopia Tropes 101, and makes all sorts of things harder to square. When we later see Turkana IV it’s been toned down, and is very much that 80s failed SF state 101. And it never looks as interesting as it did in Tashas hallucinated version of it.
Clumsy. But not… malign.

And "The Perfect Mate" wit that infamous scene of Riker telling Picard he's going to take go to the holodeck to "vent his frustrations".

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Not sure how much worse that scene is compared to most of s1's antics, but somehow I feel sure it is for being so single-entendre at the end, never mind "another man's gift" -- even TOS wasn't as blatant? Save for "Elaan of Troyius" despite the suspense/action themes underpinning it instead of just the drama, but that story was an obvious influence for this "Perfect" one.

 

[Skipper]

Clumsy. But not… malign.

Is there any difference? If the scene was a result of institutionalized sexism rather than, I don't know, some deeply misogynistic author venting his hatred against women, would it have been better?

 

[jaime]

Is there any difference? If the scene was a result of institutionalized sexism rather than, I don't know, some deeply misogynistic author venting his hatred against women, would it have been better?

See the memory alpha entry for Angel One if you want to look at that aspect of things.

Clumsy doesn’t even cover ‘institutionalised sexism’. I am saying that TNG is particularly touched by a sort of adolescent attitude to sex, one that was considered by its makers to actually be quite the boundary pushing *progressive* attitude for the time. Though it was also the influence of Free-Love sixties beliefs by an aging creator as much as anything.
Clumsy is certainly the fact that the writers — assuming any were left to do so on the old revolving door in those days — had likely paid no mind whatsoever to the earlier ‘rape gangs of Turkana IV’ (and indeed the actors didn’t bring it up either) because to them it was a throwaway line for background colour. The effect that has as context here was not thought about, anymore than it was when Alternate-Tasha effectively becomes a ‘comfort woman’ as a Romulan prisoner, leading to the birth of Sela. Just tragic backstory.

TNG, love it or hate it, was no DS9. On the plus side, it also wasn’t DSC.

 

[Tallguy]

It reminds me of the Phantom Menace that I took my son to watch. I'd never realised how racist that was until my 30's. For example, Watto who is a filthy junk dealer who loves to gamble, obsessed with money with a large hooked nose and a Middle Eastern accent. I mean. Wow.

Similar experience: My brother pointed out to me after we all watched Aliens last year that the REAL bad guy of the movie is the money grubbing Jew from New York. Yikes! (We love you, Paul!)

My problem, such as it is, with having a problem with Code of Honor is that a mono culture with THESE people is off limits and bad but OTHER mono cultures with OTHER people is OK. I can't find the right words (and it annoys me how much time I've taken to try). But it seems like this kind of perception doesn't do anyone any favors. "We have no problem with the idea, just don't make them look like people that we're SURE the audience already has these ideas about."

And really, how many cultures does Trek encounter (especially in TOS / early TNG) that aren't woefully "primitive" (i.e. like present day humans) so we can hold up some kind of a mirror / give our Evolved Heroes a conundrum? Who was more "primitive"? These folk or the Edo? (Good grief, why did I have that name memorized?)

As I'm sure has been said elsewhere in this thread, if they had all been pink (or just another bunch of white guys) then this would have just been chalked up as "a not very good TNG episode and wow, they struggled first season, didn't they?"

I have to say this thread has been far more thoughtful than I was expecting. Yay, TrekBBS!

 

[Farscape One]

See the memory alpha entry for Angel One if you want to look at that aspect of things.

Clumsy doesn’t even cover ‘institutionalised sexism’. I am saying that TNG is particularly touched by a sort of adolescent attitude to sex, one that was considered by its makers to actually be quite the boundary pushing *progressive* attitude for the time. Though it was also the influence of Free-Love sixties beliefs by an aging creator as much as anything.
Clumsy is certainly the fact that the writers — assuming any were left to do so on the old revolving door in those days — had likely paid no mind whatsoever to the earlier ‘rape gangs of Turkana IV’ (and indeed the actors didn’t bring it up either) because to them it was a throwaway line for background colour. The effect that has as context here was not thought about, anymore than it was when Alternate-Tasha effectively becomes a ‘comfort woman’ as a Romulan prisoner, leading to the birth of Sela. Just tragic backstory.

TNG, love it or hate it, was no DS9. On the plus side, it also wasn’t DSC.

I bolded the sentence I am in total agreement with.


Also, none of the writers from season one or two made it past season two. But in "Legacy", when they were at Turkana IV, Worf mentioned "Yar spoke of rape gangs and..." before being cut off by Crusher saying she can handle herself. (This was right before they beamed down initially.) So the writers did pay attention to season 1's dialogue about Yar's homeworld.

We should also remember that Yar hated the cadres, and may very well have been living in an area far away from where we see the events of this episode. Also, it had been more than 15 years since Yar was on that planet, so some things, such as the rape gangs, may not be occuring anymore.

 

[jaime]

I bolded the sentence I am in total agreement with.


Also, none of the writers from season one or two made it past season two. But in "Legacy", when they were at Turkana IV, Worf mentioned "Yar spoke of rape gangs and..." before being cut off by Crusher saying she can handle herself. (This was right before they beamed down initially.) So the writers did pay attention to season 1's dialogue about Yar's homeworld.

We should also remember that Yar hated the cadres, and may very well have been living in an area far away from where we see the events of this episode. Also, it had been more than 15 years since Yar was on that planet, so some things, such as the rape gangs, may not be occuring anymore.

Different writers by that point — Piller in particular was very much into the characters, so things like backstory and behaviours became more consistent. Whatever else can be said about Insurrection, it did follow through on Riker/Troi. Literally the only through-point that makes it unscathed through to the most recent work with the characters. (I suppose you could argue for Crusher/Picard but that was forgotten more than it was ever used or addressed.)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

It's not just that. We have Troi asking Tasha (both supposedly professionals), in a dire situation with millions of lives at stake and their immediate superior present, how hot she thinks her captor is. A question that has absolutely no bearing on the situation. If Tasha thought he was hideous or gorgeous it wouldn't have changed anything for the millions waiting for the vaccine.

It was the writers' way of saying, "See women? Even so-called 'professionals', as soon as they see something they like, immediately turn into two giggling high schoolers exchanging notes about which guy is the hottest. They can't separate what they feel from what needs to be done, unreliable!".

Imagine what would happen if a journalist asked a freed female hostage from Hamas, "Yeah, okay, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how much did you like your captors? Any spicy details you want to share with our readers?" It's not "Cancel Culture" or "You can't say anything anymore!!!". It's simple decency.

Uh, I don't care about "Cancel culture" and the "You Can't -", like at all. I like balancing the pros and cons. Shoddy writing does not replace the pros I have mentioned, imo.

And "The Perfect Mate" wit that infamous scene of Riker telling Picard he's going to take go to the holodeck to "vent his frustrations".

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Not sure how much worse that scene is compared to most of s1's antics, but somehow I feel sure it is for being so single-entendre at the end, never mind "another man's gift" -- even TOS wasn't as blatant? Save for "Elaan of Troyius" despite the suspense/action themes underpinning it instead of just the drama, but that story was an obvious influence for this "Perfect" one.

Yikes! For some reason I forgot about that scene. It does not help that I did not much care for the ep, felt it was a bit boring, and I felt that Stewart and Famke had like NO chemistry. Patrick Stewart has never had chemistry with anyone but Gates in the non-platonic way, imo. Everyone else seems so stiff. Strangely enough years later they would both star in X-Men together.

 

[Shawnster]

Someone do an animated version of the episode and replace all the Ligonians with biped reptiles as originally conceived. We will all make that head canon.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Whenever I hear someone say, "that's racist", I think of actions being done or words said out of hatred. When ignorance is involved, I think mercy should be applied.

I'm reminded of the genesis of All in the Family. It was, of course, a U.S. version of the British Till Death Do Us Part. Norman Lear wanted it to be as faithful to the original as possible, but Carroll O'Connor decided otherwise. As I understand it (and I freely admit that while I probably saw ever episode of All in the Family, I have never seen so much as a clip of Till Death Do Us Part), the original character of Alf Garnett was driven by outright hatred, and was basically incorrigible. O'Connor wasn't interested in playing that sort of character; he wanted Archie Bunker's bigotry to be driven by ignorance, and wanted Archie to be capable of learning (albeit at a glacial pace). And over the course of the series (and its sequel series, Archie Bunker's Place), Archie did learn, and did grow more moderate in his politics.

 

[Turtletrekker]

If there had been a little more diversity in the guest cast, then this episode would simply be regarded as a bad episode of Star Trek.

 

[CoveTom]

If there had been a little more diversity in the guest cast, then this episode would simply be regarded as a bad episode of Star Trek.

I still cannot believe that, even at the time it was made, someone said "I've got it; let's make the entire guest cast black" and no one on the production staff of in the Paramount offices had a problem with it.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

Absolutely impossible to take seriously.

The racism is so wildly over-the-top, and everything else so Ed Wood quality, it feels like a parody. Those crab claws were just a riot.