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I would hate the term Grey Jedi and would discard it almost immediately.
See, that's the problem. We're creating boxes for categories that don't fit. The Prime Jedi emblem in The Last Jedi was one of balance. There's no need for the "Grey Jedi" because that's not how the Force works. The Dark Side exerts a corrupting influence. If one borrows from Matthew Stover's "Revenge of the Sith" novel, the dark side is natural in one sense because it comes from "anger, fear, aggression." Or, to quote Rogue One and Chirrut, "the Force moves darkly around someone who is about to kill."
So, to have the Jedi is the allow for more light sided qualities to emerge. Or, to borrow a real world example, philosophers, who present an example of living a virtuous life. Perhaps a Jedi would find more harmony in the Stoic way of living according to "natural law." "Life. Death, growth. All in balance."
The Order may have failed due to trying to eschew attachments, though that is a story of many a monastic order that seeks to isolate itself from the people they are trying to serve. But, that doesn't mean a more balanced approach is not appropriate for the Jedi, without the whole "Grey Jedi" moniker.
Personally, I honestly didn't want Palpatine to come back. Having Snoke and the Knights of Ren, and other Dark Side powers, Nightsisters, Dathomirians, etc. could have been interesting. So, again, we need to avoid this false dichotomy that "Jedi vs. Sith" = "teh sux."
I would hate the term Grey Jedi and would discard it almost immediately.
See, that's the problem. We're creating boxes for categories that don't fit. The Prime Jedi emblem in The Last Jedi was one of balance. There's no need for the "Grey Jedi" because that's not how the Force works. The Dark Side exerts a corrupting influence. If one borrows from Matthew Stover's "Revenge of the Sith" novel, the dark side is natural in one sense because it comes from "anger, fear, aggression." Or, to quote Rogue One and Chirrut, "the Force moves darkly around someone who is about to kill."
So, to have the Jedi is the allow for more light sided qualities to emerge. Or, to borrow a real world example, philosophers, who present an example of living a virtuous life. Perhaps a Jedi would find more harmony in the Stoic way of living according to "natural law." "Life. Death, growth. All in balance."
Either way, that's not how many of us who follow the Gray Jedi interpretation on how the Light-Side's philosophy & actions are to be.
They aren't balanced either. You say they are, but we don't see it as such.
There are too many things that "The Jedi Order" does that seems counter to what we perceive as "Balanced".
The Order may have failed due to trying to eschew attachments, though that is a story of many a monastic order that seeks to isolate itself from the people they are trying to serve. But, that doesn't mean a more balanced approach is not appropriate for the Jedi, without the whole "Grey Jedi" moniker.
I'm agreeing with you that a 'Balanced Perspective' on "The Force is Correct". "This is the Way!".
How we get there, what is acceptable, how we behave, how you treat other Force Users.
That's open to different interpretations.
I have no issue with Rey SkyWalker using "Force Lightning". In fact, I hope she still uses it in the future along with any & all Force Powers from both sides of the old divide.
The issue is emotional control, balance of logic, clear focus on what is the goal. To not get too full of yourself in thinking that you can magically solve everything by "Brute Forcing" the use of your "Force Powers" to magically solve everything, especially by Authoritarian Force.
Working with people & the greater society, discussion, diplomacy, understanding is the way.
"The Force" is just a power set, a series of tools that you have at your disposal.
Abuse / Arrogant behavior now that you have "Special Force Powers" is what leads to issues that the same past Sith / Dark Force users has encountered.
Their belief that they can use "The Force" as a brute force method to attain power & to bend reality to their whims is what leads to needless conflict & mass suffering.
Alot of the issue stems from philosophy, teachings, understanding, & having too much dogma on either side.
From the EU's perspective, that dogma is what created all the major old Force Wars and what led to such massive death in past wars.
Personally, I honestly didn't want Palpatine to come back.
Either way, that's not how many of us who follow the Gray Jedi interpretation on how the Light-Side's philosophy & actions are to be.
They aren't balanced either. You say they are, but we don't see it as such.
There are too many things that "The Jedi Order" does that seems counter to what we perceive as "Balanced".
An error in application does not mean an error in philosphy.
I did not read it recently, but read it and watched the video a couple of years of go. I found the perspective interesting but in error. More so, it uses the terminology of the Jedi in a way that seems unnecessary.
Why? You're reskinning it to serve the anti "mumbo jumbo" vendetta against the old ways. Why reject it out of hand so quickly, when there is application that could be balanced, logical and positive direction. I appreciate wanting to expand the story but I always have a hard time with the "baby out with the bathwater" tendency I see with old organizations with zero notion of how to learn from the past. That there are problems with these organizations does not mean discarding all.
The problem with both the Jedi and Sith is the tendency to become inwardly focus. One of the aspects of the Acolyte I very much like is that it shows how for the Jedi it started from a desire to police itself, resulting in becoming more insular, inwardly focus and protectionist. Much to the eventual decline and detriment of the Order. The Sith are equally inwardly focused, designed in a pyramid type scene to focus power towards the top. Power and control are the top priorities, and in the prior EU a desire to live eternally to maintain that power.
To my mind, addressing the deficits are as important as recognizing them. With the Jedi striving towards a balanced approach should not mean destroying an enemy, but recognizing how life works, and how to provide a balanced approach for peace and justice while participating in the galactic sphere.
I did not read it recently, but read it and watched the video a couple of years of go. I found the perspective interesting but in error. More so, it uses the terminology of the Jedi in a way that seems unnecessary.
Forming a giant "Jedi Order" to go after "The Sith" and form a organization to act as a form of "Galactic Police Force" or "Jedi Galactic Rangers" in space isn't what "The Jedi Order" should be doing.
Teaching Force Users to be in balance, to be good people, to integrate into society w/o fear of co-existing with it.
That's what they should be doing.
Not to live as a giant monastic order and to try to act as a police force over it's own members.
I appreciate wanting to expand the story but I always have a hard time with the "baby out with the bathwater" tendency I see with old organizations with zero notion of how to learn from the past. That there are problems with these organizations does not mean discarding all.
But given the devastation wrought by the organizations in existing Galactic History, I wouldn't want to be associated with either one as a Neutral Force User.
That's part of the problem when you gather so many Jedi & Sith into a stiff Organization and have a hard core police unit to make sure your people "Stay in line".
One of the aspects of the Acolyte I very much like is that it shows how for the Jedi it started from a desire to police itself, resulting in becoming more insular, inwardly focus and protectionist. Much to the eventual decline and detriment of the Order. The Sith are equally inwardly focused, designed in a pyramid type scene to focus power towards the top. Power and control are the top priorities, and in the prior EU a desire to live eternally to maintain that power.
With the Jedi striving towards a balanced approach should not mean destroying an enemy, but recognizing how life works, and how to provide a balanced approach for peace and justice while participating in the galactic sphere.
Why go down the same route as the previous occupants in history?
Learn from their mistakes on both sides, but approach things from a different PoV & structure.
We both want the same goals, I just don't want to go at it the same way you want to.
Is that so wrong? Or are you afraid of something genuinely different?
The reason things will go back to "Jedi and Sith" is one of history. The Jedi have been around in the Star Wars galaxy for over 25,000 years. Even Rey's teaching are fundimentally different from someone's teaching 25,000 years ago, the public are going to call her group "jedi" even if she called her group "Skywalkers", because "jedi" is the galaxy's generic name for force user. It would take a monumental feat of monumental feats and a thousand years to get the galaxy to shift from "jedi" to "skywalker" as the name of the force users who are helpful or whatever because on a thousand thousand worlds, people tell their younglings about the "Jedi", and have for tens of thousands of years.
Forming a giant "Jedi Order" to go after "The Sith" and form a organization to act as a form of "Galactic Police Force" or "Jedi Galactic Rangers" in space isn't what "The Jedi Order" should be doing.
Teaching Force Users to be in balance, to be good people, to integrate into society w/o fear of co-existing with it.
That's what they should be doing.
Not to live as a giant monastic order and to try to act as a police force over it's own members.
Why go down the same route as the previous occupants in history?
Learn from their mistakes on both sides, but approach things from a different PoV & structure.
We both want the same goals, I just don't want to go at it the same way you want to.
Is that so wrong? Or are you afraid of something genuinely different?
With respect, I fear nothing in a fictional story. It's fiction. It isn't reality. So, I have no reason to feel fear towards a different interpretation. Only that I think that discarding all just because "no more mumbo jumbo" and "want to be different" is rather odd.
In addition, once the accusations of being afraid starts over a fictional world I will step away. Thank you for an interesting conversation
Controversial or not: Carson Teva absolutely deserves his own series.
EDIT: Also, splitting the difference on some discussion above—
— In the current canon universe at least, Gray Jedi are not a thing. You can be a neutral Force-sensitive individual, sure, but not a neutral Jedi. You’re a Jedi, a “Dark Jedi”, or a Sith.
— Rogue One was excellent, and adds to the story of A New Hope.
EDIT #2, so I don’t start multiposting: Movie/trilogy I’d like to see, but never will: Rey unearths L3-37’s personality in the Millennium Falcon’s computer, and gradually has an epiphany — she publicly advocates for a sweeping change in the status of droids within galactic society. They’re sentient and feeling, and deserve the same rights as anyone else.
This does not go over well.
A few years later, the formerly lauded hero Rey Skywalker is now an isolated figure. But that hasn’t stopped her from quietly seeking and training a small but growing new circle of Jedi Knights — one of whom, despite the fact that it should be impossible, is a droid.
There is no gray side of the Force. If you're saying that Rey's Force alignment in the films is somehow wrong and should change, then in essence you're saying that she was too light-sided and that seems like nonsense.
KamenRiderBlade said:
I have no issue with Rey SkyWalker using "Force Lightning".
And yet she refused to abuse the power willy nilly.
That should also tell you something.
She felt remorse & sadness that her friend Chewbaca might've been hurt/catpured by the First Order & that she might've accidentally hurt him when she Lightning blasted that transport.
She also cut-off the lightning immediately the moment she realized that she might've hurt Chewy.
There is no gray side of the Force. If you're saying that Rey's Force alignment in the films is somehow wrong and should change, then in essence you're saying that she was too light-sided and that seems like nonsense.
Rogue 1 also proves that "Star Wars" doesn't have to be tied to the "same old thing" and that it can venture out and tell different stories instead of rehashing the same old thing.
Rogue 1 only exists piggybacking off of Star Wars. There's barely an original idea in the film because--as noted yesterday--it's entire plot was built on the opening crawl of Star Wars, and shoehorned Evazan, Ponda Baba, fanwanking Vader and video-gamey Leia & Tarkin (along with repurposed Red Leader footage from the 1977 film, among other shameless swipes). Remove all of those very key elements, and there's no Rogue 1.
And you're absolutely so sure of this how? You have a Time Machine to a alternate 1977 with a alternate version of Star Wars?
Nonsensical. Unlike you, I deal with real history, and the story of Star Wars only worked because of its very specific messages all tied to the religious / spiritual conflict / rise of the Man of Destiny. You are incapable of accepting this fact, but history and the people ho lived it had and have no trouble accepting the obvious.
He didn't have a proper parent or parental figures to put him in check and hold his ego at bay.
He was an egomaniac who refused to listen to anyone with far more experience in all matters, ad as a result, he was a habitual failure who lacked the character and moral composition to ever be a top Jedi, and certainly not as a Jedi Master on the council.
That's what happens when you have a Force Monastic Order like "The Jedi Order" who kidnap children at a young age & brain wash them.
Yet this did not happen to Obi-Wan, Yoda and innumerable Jedi. Anakin was a problem from the start..
The fact that "The Jedi Council", in their infinte wisdom didn't see the wisdom in going to free his mother from slavery, even though they could've at any point was incredibly blind / short sided.
The same Anakin who--desperate to get only what he wanted--soon committed mass murder of innocents, including children. Anakin is no example on which to base behavior or action.
She felt remorse & sadness that her friend Chewbaca might've been hurt/catpured by the First Order & that she might've accidentally hurt him when she Lightning blasted that transport.
She also cut-off the lightning immediately the moment she realized that she might've hurt Chewy.
But more proof that you don't need to arbitrarily divide the Force Powers down the Light/Dark side.
Force Powers are just powers, it's how you use it, the intent, the goals matter.
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George Lucas was still head of creative, regardless during that time period.
It was all under his control at those periods in time.
If he wanted to change things, I'm sure he could've found ways to change it.
Rogue 1 only exists piggybacking off of Star Wars. There's barely an original idea in the film because--as noted yesterday--it's entire plot was built on the opening crawl of Star Wars, and shoehorned Evazan, Ponda Baba, fanwanking Vader and video-gamey Leia & Tarkin (along with repurposed Red Leader footage from the 1977 film, among other shameless swipes). Remove all of those very key elements, and there's no Rogue 1.
Nonsensical. Unlike you, I deal with real history, and the story of Star Wars only worked because of its very specific messages all tied to the religious / spiritual conflict / rise of the Man of Destiny. You are incapable of accepting this fact, but history and the people ho lived it had and have no trouble accepting the obvious.
Maybe that's what you took out of Star Wars when you watched it all those years ago.
The other folks who watched it might not have gotten the same thing as you did.
The vast majority of fans aren't super hardcore Star Wars or Sci-Fi nerds.
They're just normal fans, Star Wars was entertaining, that's all it needed to be at that time.
He was an egomaniac who refused to listen to anyone with far more experience in all matters, ad as a result, he was a habitual failure who lacked the character and moral composition to ever be a top Jedi, and certainly not as a Jedi Master on the council.
And part of why he became that way was the way he was raised.
They knew about his special situation, yet the Jedi Council didn't do anything to adjust for it.
They just shoved him into the Jedi Order system and expected him to fall in line.
Anakin was MUCH older than other Jedi Younglings.
His Upbringing was completely different than most of the other Jedi.
They knew he had attachments to his mother.
They didn't make special accomadations for him to offset any potential future problems.
Yes, end results speak for itself, he had a horrible childhood, he turned out worse while in the Jedi Order w/o proper Parental Structure.
Expecting a "One Size Fits All" is very narrow minded of you.
Not all Younglings are going to fit in the same way.
Some children will have special needs due to special circumstances.
Ah, so who is responsible?
The Jedi Council?
Nobody is reponsible?
Or are you going to keep on blaming the child for bad parenting and how he turns out as he grew up into a teen / young adult?
The same Anakin who--desperate to get only what he wanted--soon committed mass murder of innocents, including children. Anakin is no example on which to base behavior or action.
Anakin fell to the Darkside because Mace Windu didn't keep his word to arrest Palpatine, that let Palpatine keep on turning Anakin to the dark side by showing that the Jedi can't be trusted to keep their basic promise.
Mace Windu came to arrest Palpatine with other Jedi Masters.
He had the advantage, Palpatine was disarmed and defeated.
Even with Palpatine's trick of Force Lightning, Mace Windu blocked & reflected it back at Palpatine, effectively disfiguring him.
Then Mace Windu decided to arbitrarily change his mind and go with extra-judicial killing of Palpatine, instead of arresting him.
He disappointed Anakin, proved in Anakins mind that Palpatine was right about their behavior.
All Mace Windu had to do was arrest Palpatine, put him on trial in a glitzy fashion.
Figure out how to prosecute him properly.
It would've been the Trial of the Millenium, the entire Galaxy would be watching.
But no, he decided to take the law into his own hands.
And guess what, that certified that the "Jedi Order" went into business for themselves.
Instead of upholding the principles of "The Republic".
Imagine if this was any old Police Officer, they had the criminal/perpetrator down and out.
Then they arbitrarily decided that the perp was "Too Dangerous" and needed to die right there.
The media would have a field day with his behavior.
We've already had enough issues with Policing IRL where Cops go OverBoard.
You don't get to be a arbitrary Judge/Jury/Executioner just because you have "Force Powers" or are a high ranking "Jedi Council" member.
Well, that's your PoV, you're entitled to it. I enjoyed Rogue1 ALOT more myself.
Getting to see all the events that played out to what lead to the opening scenes of Ep.4 is awesome IMO.
Getting to see more background lore on the greater SW Universe is also interesting.
But what interests me, might not interest you.
Different strokes for different folks.
But are the kids ever allowed to go home to their parents, is "The Jedi Order" a Boarding School?
Or are they permanently cut-off from their parents and "The Jedi Order" takes over the parental & schooling responsibilites of all young "Force Sensitives".
From everything that I've seen/read, they literally adopt the children away and they're not really allowed to form a bond with their biological families.
It's also what is fundamentally flawed about "The Jedi Order" IMO.
I'm actually very hopeful given how Rey behaved & how she reacted.
I'm very hopeful that she might go towards the "Gray Side" of the force and potentially bring that concept from the EU into the mainstream canon.
Especially now that George Lucas doesn't have absolute control over the canon of Star Wars.
Imagine how you'd feel if future Jedi are all "Grey Jedi's" or some sort of Hybrid and there aren't anymore classic Jedi/Sith anymore.
A new era, a new world for "Force Users" would finally come about.
I'm sure that sends shivers down your spine by violating George Lucas canon & bringing in EU canon.
Given that we, who support the "Gray Jedi concept" or "Jeth /Sidai" or whatever new term you want to come up with to represent us are on the EU side and don't necessarilly agree with George Lucas & his interpretation, we're going to always be in opposition to his view on the topic.
Especially since you don't get to dictate to the audience how their art is supposed to be viewed on a personal level.
Once your creation goes out in the world, the audience is free to interpret it / understand it however they see.
Even if it clashes with the original authors intent. This is one of those cases.
The Gray Jedi following is still around, and many are supporters who followed the EU content.
Even the EU writers realized that the whole Gray Jedi thing was a bad idea pretty quickly and dumped it.
And didn't pretty much every character who promoted that philosophy end up being evil.
Being a Gray Jedi is impossible, because as soon a you start to touch The Dark Side, it corrupts you, not matter how good your intentions are.
Even the EU writers realized that the whole Gray Jedi thing was a bad idea pretty quickly and dumped it.
And didn't pretty much every character who promoted that philosophy end up being evil.
Being a Gray Jedi is impossible, because as soon a you start to touch The Dark Side, it corrupts you, not matter how good your intentions are.
Depends on the writing and how you decide to portray the characters and how it goes.
If you make your characters do that, then obviously, that will be the end result.
It may reasonably be argued that throughout Return of the Jedi, Luke is hovering dangerously close to falling to the Dark Side; it’s only when he cuts off Vader’s hand and realizes how close he’s gotten that he firmly pulls away from it.
But it's not a matter of interpretation, it's about the whole nature of the Force, it's literally impossible. And I really can't see them changing the Force that drastically.
And like I said before even in the books where the idea of Gray Jedi was introduced, they eventually realized it was a mistake, both in universe and in the real world, and stopped using it.
