How big was the Enterprise?

[Tallguy]

I'm trying to think of a way to succinctly describe the possible conflict of a "small quarters" ship. I like the aesthetics of it, personally. I think it says something of the location and the mindset of the people who would take this voyage. It is a willing hardship and denial. It's rather Spartan.

Then we get into "We're in a post scarcity society!" which wasn't really a consideration in TOS. "We can have it all! AND we're NOT the military!" That by itself could see some changes being desired by some.

But then you have the changing mission parameters of TNG (whether the show ever really realized those parameters). This is not just an 18th century sailing vessel writ grand. This is a COLONY. We have families and we're going beyond the rim of starlight for a LOOOONG time. We NEED to have rooms and spaces to express our community and to live our lives. It's not a stargoing aircraft carrier anymore it's a city in space.

This aesthetic becomes baked into the Star Trek DNA and as we move backwards (I do NOT mean that pejoratively) into the spaces where TOS lived in there starts to be a pushback against this Spartan outlook where even having to take into account the economy of space on such a vessel warrants reconsideration in certain sectors of both production and fandom.

That's my take on it.

I remember an interview with Shatner shortly before TMP premiered where he talked about how spacious his new quarters were compared to TOS. Funny to see how small even those are compared to Picard's and certainly to Pike's.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm trying to think of a way to succinctly describe the possible conflict of a "small quarters" ship. I like the aesthetics of it, personally. I think it says something of the location and the mindset of the people who would take this voyage. It is a willing hardship and denial. It's rather Spartan.

Then we get into "We're in a post scarcity society!" which wasn't really a consideration in TOS. "We can have it all! AND we're NOT the military!" That by itself could see some changes being desired by some.

But then you have the changing mission parameters of TNG (whether the show ever really realized those parameters). This is not just an 18th century sailing vessel writ grand. This is a COLONY. We have families and we're going beyond the rim of starlight for a LOOOONG time. We NEED to have rooms and spaces to express our community and to live our lives. It's not a stargoing aircraft carrier anymore it's a city in space.

This aesthetic becomes baked into the Star Trek DNA and as we move backwards (I do NOT mean that pejoratively) into the spaces where TOS lived in there starts to be a pushback against this Spartan outlook where even having to take into account the economy of space on such a vessel warrants reconsideration in certain sectors of both production and fandom.

That's my take on it.

I remember an interview with Shatner shortly before TMP premiered where he talked about how spacious his new quarters were compared to TOS. Funny to see how small even those are compared to Picard's and certainly to Pike's.

With Pike's it seem to be multipurpose, more that just an office or a bedroom.

 

[Warped9]

Starfleet supposedly not being a military was a TNG thing and even then it was bs.

 

[Tallguy]

Starfleet supposedly not being a military was a TNG thing and even then it was bs.

I'm well aware. If you want to go check my priors go browse any Is Starfleet a Military? thread.

With Pike's it seem to be multipurpose, more that just an office or a bedroom.

Oh, certainly. It's almost a community space. And it looks far less huge when you pack the number of people in there that he often has. And I really like that use and the way it portrays his command.

Where it goes "wrong" is that everyone ELSE'S private quarters are on the same scale.

 

[DaveyNY]

Well, the US Navy calls it 'liberty' but, yeah, I could tell some stories. Some of them might even be true...

Heh ... I've known several sailors through the years that took 'liberties' with me.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm well aware. If you want to go check my priors go browse any Is Starfleet a Military? thread.


Oh, certainly. It's almost a community space. And it looks far less huge when you pack the number of people in there that he often has. And I really like that use and the way it portrays his command.

Where it goes "wrong" is that everyone ELSE'S private quarters are on the same scale.

Party ship!!!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Then we get into "We're in a post scarcity society!" which wasn't really a consideration in TOS. "We can have it all! AND we're NOT the military!"

The post-scarcity bit and the size of the Enterprise-D forshadowed the JJ-and-later ship design philosophy. It was all wish-fulfilment and no realistic contraints:

• Cost is no object. The Federation gives Starfleet a budget we can barely dream of. This is plausible because they're so big 'n rich.

• Material resources are no object. This is plausible because they'd have no end of lifeless planets and asteriods to mine.

• Delta-v energy is no object. Starships can be any size, and we'll never worry about how much fuel it takes to accelerate such huge masses and slow them down again. This is the one that bugs me, but really, in a world with transporter beams, warp drive, and inertial damping fields, the laws of physics know when they're licked.

I was annoyed by the fantasy ship sizes, but now I've talked myself out of it. Yay, Star Trek!

 

[fireproof78]

So, I'm going to approach this from a slightly different tack, to borrow a nautical reference. I studied ship and naval construction not from an engineering aspect but from a psychological; I'm curious how such a space would be lived in by people. I always enjoyed the TOS Enterprise from a fantasy element, but from an engineering and psychological element it became less apparent that it was as realistic as the show offered up. After doing some brief studies in to what is necessary for space travel I resigned to the idea that the TOS Enterprise belonged more in the realm of fantasy.

As such, I look at the size as a reflection of what is important to the culture of the day and what they emphasize. The TOS Enterprise was designed to be on mission; it had science labs, shuttles, and the space to accommodate those resources and focus on that assignment. It may feel spartan in comparison to other ships, but that's due to the duty they were assigned-a reflection of what was needed for that assignment. That was the extent of the thinking.

Ships like the Galaxy class were meant to represent the excess capability of production, and a reflection of the desire not just to explore, or research, but also the benefits of joining them. Resources were less concerning so they could project more capability.

The Kelvin Enterprise was meant to respond to a specific threat and the scale of their abilities moved up with it.

The Defiant also reflects this attitude but scaled down while driving power to very specific things.

Of the 4, I think the TOS Enterprise has the best balance of design and capability, while the SNW Enterprise represents closer to being a ship that is meant to be appealing to diplomats, in addition to science and research.

 

[blssdwlf]

I'm well aware. If you want to go check my priors go browse any Is Starfleet a Military? thread.


Oh, certainly. It's almost a community space. And it looks far less huge when you pack the number of people in there that he often has. And I really like that use and the way it portrays his command.

Where it goes "wrong" is that everyone ELSE'S private quarters are on the same scale.

What if in SNW only some of the officers have those giant cabins and the rest are in smaller quarters or in bunk beds? Do we ever see a lowly crewman's quarters?

While looking at earlier TOS episodes I noticed that "Charlie X" establishes a very spacious gynmasium area that is easily 2 decks high. TOS might have had some large community spaces for the crew in exchange for smaller quarters. IMHO...

 

[publiusr]

I would have called the SNW “Sombra” having it be pre TMP post TOS, Archer’s ship a Loknar modification.

 

[Poltargyst]

I would have called the SNW “Sombra” having it be pre TMP post TOS, Archer’s ship a Loknar modification.

I think my universal translator is on the fritz. What are you saying here?

 

[fireproof78]

I think my universal translator is on the fritz. What are you saying here?

Sombra class from SNW that looks very similar to a Constitution:

Loknar is another class from FASA, I believe.

ETA: the above chart is merely to show that there are two different ships referenced in SNW, and not meant to be reflective of sizes, something that is inconsistent on the best of days.

 

[Dukhat]

Sombra class from SNW that looks very similar to a Constitution:

That chart is incorrect about the Sombra. It is identical in size and shape to the SNW Constitution class.

Actually, now that I look closer I see that this chart is just fan-made, since there are no Saladin and Hermes classes in SNW, nor does the Antares type from TOS-R resemble what's on that chart.

 

[drt]

What if in SNW only some of the officers have those giant cabins and the rest are in smaller quarters or in bunk beds? Do we ever see a lowly crewman's quarters?

We saw Uhura’s quarters in Season 1, she shared a room with three others, it was a common room with four private bunks (if you watch Lower Decks, it was pretty similar to Boimler and Rutherford’s current room, just with two more bunks).

 

[HotRod]

That chart is incorrect about the Sombra. It is identical in size and shape to the SNW Constitution class.

Yep. The only difference I could spot between the Peregrine and the Enterprise was that the Peregrine appeared to have blue markings and has the old bridge module that the Enterprise had during its appearances in Discovery.

 

[Will_Carter]

Sombra class from SNW that looks very similar to a Constitution:

Holy crap thank you for that chart.

Shows me just how taffing HUGE the antares-type is in terms of cargo hauling capacity. No wonder she can out-haul a connie.

 

[fireproof78]

Holy crap thank you for that chart.

Shows me just how taffing HUGE the antares-type is in terms of cargo hauling capacity. No wonder she can out-haul a connie.

It's a fan chart, not official, but I found it helpful enough for catching the basic idea.

As a die hard Franz Joseph Tech Manual fan I couldn't resist the Hermes and Saladin references

 

[Daedalus]

So, I'm going to approach this from a slightly different tack, to borrow a nautical reference. I studied ship and naval construction not from an engineering aspect but from a psychological; I'm curious how such a space would be lived in by people. I always enjoyed the TOS Enterprise from a fantasy element, but from an engineering and psychological element it became less apparent that it was as realistic as the show offered up. After doing some brief studies in to what is necessary for space travel I resigned to the idea that the TOS Enterprise belonged more in the realm of fantasy.

As such, I look at the size as a reflection of what is important to the culture of the day and what they emphasize. The TOS Enterprise was designed to be on mission; it had science labs, shuttles, and the space to accommodate those resources and focus on that assignment. It may feel spartan in comparison to other ships, but that's due to the duty they were assigned-a reflection of what was needed for that assignment. That was the extent of the thinking.

Ships like the Galaxy class were meant to represent the excess capability of production, and a reflection of the desire not just to explore, or research, but also the benefits of joining them. Resources were less concerning so they could project more capability.

The Kelvin Enterprise was meant to respond to a specific threat and the scale of their abilities moved up with it.

The Defiant also reflects this attitude but scaled down while driving power to very specific things.

Of the 4, I think the TOS Enterprise has the best balance of design and capability, while the SNW Enterprise represents closer to being a ship that is meant to be appealing to diplomats, in addition to science and research.

As Ive got older, I've come to realise that the whole show is closer to fantasy than fiction anyway. I don't say it out loud too often, of course.

 

[Will_Carter]

As Ive got older, I've come to realise that the whole show is closer to fantasy than fiction anyway. I don't say it out loud too often, of course.

Ironically star wars is more grounded feeling if you set the Force to one side.

Meanwhile trek...

Still. i love these ships.

 

[fireproof78]

Ironically star wars is more grounded feeling if you set the Force to one side.

Meanwhile trek...

Still. i love these ships.

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I recently found this video on the Star Wars side that supports how the original film (STAR WARS, before a NEW HOPE) was a lot more grounded than it was given credit for or focused on later on.