It bothers me of how much corruption there is within Starfleet.

[FredH]

Not all badmirals are Sectioners, surely. Those whose planning, motives, and execution are weak would be liabilities.

Heck, younger me posited a theory I no longer subscribe to: that Kirk was himself a Section 31 guy, and that was why he periodically broke the Prime Directive (or made questionable declarations about what a proper productive society is) to what he saw as the Federation’s benefit. (I don’t assume that Section 31’s actions are always wrong, just the ones we hear about where it makes a good story.)

I don’t believe this anymore, but it would quietly fit, here and there in TOS.

 

[Greg Cox]

Also going back to TOS, we should note that pretty much every time Kirk met some Great Man, he almost always turned out to have feet of clay: Tristan Adams, John Gill, Dr. Daystrom, Ron Tracy, Roger Korby, etc.

My point being, "corruption" was a common theme in STAR TREK long before Section 31 was introduced.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I suppose Kirk could check objectives off S31's list without ever being aware of it.

Also going back to TOS, we should note that pretty much every time Kirk met some Great Man, he almost always turned out to have feet of clay: Tristan Adams, John Gill, Dr. Daystrom, Ron Tracy, Roger Korby, etc.

My point being, "corruption" was a common theme in STAR TREK long before Section 31 was introducted.

Idols don't need to belong to the same covert group to fall, just the human(oid) race.

 

[Phoenix219]

Heck, younger me posited a theory I no longer subscribe to: that Kirk was himself a Section 31 guy, and that was why he periodically broke the Prime Directive (or made questionable declarations about what a proper productive society is) to what he saw as the Federation’s benefit. (I don’t assume that Section 31’s actions are always wrong, just the ones we hear about where it makes a good story.)

I don’t believe this anymore, but it would quietly fit, here and there in TOS.

haha. original timeline Kirk started the damn organization, but with all the timeline rewrites, it becomes a pre-existing unit that has nothing to do with him. that could be a lot of fun. lol.

edit

i wonder if there could be a connection between dept of temporal investigations, the temporal cold war, section 31, and the whole fact that we need to preserve the 31st century. hmm.

 

[Greg Cox]

I thought it was a writ on how to live a more evolved life?

I thought it was "Wagon Train to the Stars."

 

[FredH]

haha. original timeline Kirk started the damn organization, but with all the timeline rewrites, it becomes a pre-existing unit that has nothing to do with him. that could be a lot of fun. lol.

Indeed — though in that timeline, presumably that’s the start of Kirk’s own journey towards becoming a Badmiral. I could see it… (And I’m reminded that, iirc, the old FASA rpg had a Star Trek IV supplement that included a contingency plan — drawn up by Admiral Kirk! — for a war with the Klingons that the Federation would start. The 80s, amirite?)

 

[Phoenix219]

Indeed — though in that timeline, presumably that’s the start of Kirk’s own journey towards becoming a Badmiral. I could see it… (And I’m reminded that, iirc, the old FASA rpg had a Star Trek IV supplement that included a contingency plan — drawn up by Admiral Kirk! — for a war with the Klingons that the Federation would start. The 80s, amirite?)

hmm. he might not have been as bad as what is to come, though.

but remember in TOS no one knows about time travel, but by SNW and DSC, no one cares. what if there was already a rewrite between TOS and the movies? who knows how badly something like TUC could have gone the first time around, and how it could have affected Kirk. lots of interesting possibilities.

 

[fireproof78]

but remember in TOS no one knows about time travel,

Um, what?

Captain's log. Using the lightspeed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century. We are now in extended orbit around Earth, using our ship's deflector shields to remain unobserved. Our mission, historical research. We are monitoring Earth communications to find out how our planet survived desperate problems in the year 1968. (~Assignment: Earth)

And it was discovered early on in the show:
SULU: Captain, my velocity gauge is off the scale.
SPOCK: Engine power went off the scale as well. We're now travelling faster than is possible for normal space.
KIRK: Checked elapsed time, Mister Sulu.
SULU: My chronometer's running backwards, sir.
KIRK: Time warp. We're going backward in time. Helm, begin reversing power. Slowly.
SULU: Helm answering, sir. Power reversing.
SPOCK: We're back to normal time, Captain.
KIRK: Engines ahead. Warp one.
SULU: Warp one, sir.
KIRK: Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Yes, sir.
KIRK: The time warp. What did it do to us?
SPOCK: We've regressed in time seventy one hours. It is now three days ago, Captain. We have three days to live over again.
KIRK: Not those last three days.
SPOCK: This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era.
KIRK: We may risk it someday, Mister Spock. Resume course to our next destination, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Course laid in, sir.
KIRK: Steady as she goes. (~The Naked Time).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

(~Assignment: Earth)
(~The Naked Time).

See also "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "All Our Yesterdays," and "The City on the Edge of Forever."

 

[Phoenix219]

Um, what?

Captain's log. Using the lightspeed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century. We are now in extended orbit around Earth, using our ship's deflector shields to remain unobserved. Our mission, historical research. We are monitoring Earth communications to find out how our planet survived desperate problems in the year 1968. (~Assignment: Earth)

And it was discovered early on in the show:
SULU: Captain, my velocity gauge is off the scale.
SPOCK: Engine power went off the scale as well. We're now travelling faster than is possible for normal space.
KIRK: Checked elapsed time, Mister Sulu.
SULU: My chronometer's running backwards, sir.
KIRK: Time warp. We're going backward in time. Helm, begin reversing power. Slowly.
SULU: Helm answering, sir. Power reversing.
SPOCK: We're back to normal time, Captain.
KIRK: Engines ahead. Warp one.
SULU: Warp one, sir.
KIRK: Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Yes, sir.
KIRK: The time warp. What did it do to us?
SPOCK: We've regressed in time seventy one hours. It is now three days ago, Captain. We have three days to live over again.
KIRK: Not those last three days.
SPOCK: This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era.
KIRK: We may risk it someday, Mister Spock. Resume course to our next destination, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Course laid in, sir.
KIRK: Steady as she goes. (~The Naked Time).

yeah, after it was discovered in naked time and tomorrow is yesterday. until then it was theoretical. once they figured it out, the assignment earth mission happened on purpose.

 

[fireproof78]

yeah, after it was discovered in naked time and tomorrow is yesterday. until then it was theoretical. once they figured it out, the assignment earth mission happened on purpose.

So they did know about it in TOS. Just earlier on. In SNW and DSC it was all top secret and hush-hush so I wouldn't expect TOS to be like, "Yeah, time travel. Just like on Gallifrey, eh Mr. Spock!"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

yeah, after it was discovered in naked time and tomorrow is yesterday. until then it was theoretical. once they figured it out, the assignment earth mission happened on purpose.

Yeah, for the four episodes produced, not counting the two pilots, time travel was only theoretical.

 

[Phoenix219]

So they did know about it in TOS. Just earlier on. In SNW and DSC it was all top secret and hush-hush so I wouldn't expect TOS to be like, "Yeah, time travel. Just like on Gallifrey, eh Mr. Spock!"

Considering they both take place before TOS, I would argue at the acceptance of time travel here and my own presupposition concerning timeline rewrites, that in the original 23rd century it was unknown, but by the time it is rewritten to the new 23rd century after a Time war, everything is known about.

 

[scotthm]

For a humanity that has evolved past greed and selfishness after first contact with the Vulcans in the years after World War III, there sure seems to be a lot of corruption with Starfleet.

Why would humanity have "evolved" past greed and selfishness? Did the kind and altruistic people kill off all the selfish and greedy ones? Wouldn't that make them corrupt? Basic human nature doesn't change just because our material circumstances improve. The rich have at least as many vices as the poor.
---------------

 

[fireproof78]

Considering they both take place before TOS, I would argue at the acceptance of time travel here and my own presupposition concerning timeline rewrites, that in the original 23rd century it was unknown, but by the time it is rewritten to the new 23rd century after a Time war, everything is known about.

I think that is presumptuous that all Starfleet officers must know all the mission logs.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think that is presumptuous that all Starfleet officers must know all the mission logs.

definitely not, but time travel would be something huge.

plus, there was time travel in ENT.

original timeline, all of that didn't happen until TOS and its movies. The fact that it is no big deal on ENT, SNW and DSC strongly support my thesis.



they may not know all the mission logs, but its possible - look at lower decks...lmfao.

 

[fireproof78]

definitely not, but time travel would be something huge.

plus, there was time travel in ENT.

original timeline, all of that didn't happen until TOS and its movies. The fact that it is no big deal on ENT, SNW and DSC strongly support my thesis.



they may not know all the mission logs, but its possible - look at lower decks...lmfao.

It doesn't mean that much to me. It's all dramatic license regardless. Just like Lower Decks...

 

[ananta]

Simple truth: drama necessitates conflict. “They were all perfect, they all loved each other and never had differing or incorrect ideas” provides no basis for any stories worth telling.

 

[FredH]

definitely not, but time travel would be something huge.

plus, there was time travel in ENT.

original timeline, all of that didn't happen until TOS and its movies. The fact that it is no big deal on ENT, SNW and DSC strongly support my thesis.



they may not know all the mission logs, but its possible - look at lower decks...lmfao.

Alternately, the top Feds were quite reasonably keeping knowledge of its existence under wraps for as long as possible, including from the Starfleet rank and file — when you’ve already got a problem with Captains occasionally going rogue on this or that planet, you don’t want to give them the chance to consider completely mucking up history too. But then somebody on the 1701 goes and blabs on an open channel about having “discovered” time travel…

And the Klingons do much the same, outside of some senior monks at Boreth and a few top people. Last thing they need is some idiot going back and challenging/killing Kahless or something.

So it becomes this thing where the senior spies on both sides with Above Top Secret clearance know they they have it, and so does the opposition — and for the most part, neither side wants it used (after a few often-rogue attempts at it happen on both sides, with unfortunate results — which happen to explain any early-TOS continuity issues you like, of which there were plenty; later series only continued the tradition).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Unlike James Kirk, Jean-Luc Picard often placed Humanity on a pedestal and proclaimed that Humans had evolved past certain things, when in reality, it hadn't

Obviously, but Picard--being a mouthpiece for Roddenberry--spewed that utopian garbage, along with the majority of the TNG main characters, which ripped the teeth from the mouth of that one thing no good Star Trek series should be without: legitimate, deeply felt human drama born of interpersonal conflicts. It is no wonder so much of TNG was dry and lifeless, and one did not need to compare it to TOS to reach that conclusion.

but take away a Human's comforts, and he or she will steal, lie, cheat, and even kill in a heartbeat.

True, and they also seek power over the minds and lives of others (Dr. Tristan Adams), immortality and selective, quasi-colonialist interference (Captain Ronald Tracey), career-minded greed and revenge motives (Ben Finney), along with other negative human traits which we cannot be separated from even if living in Space Disneyland of Picard's TNG perspective about humankind.