S1 vs. S2 vs. S3 (comparing seasons)

[fireproof78]

If we're talking about a trilogy, if I don't like #1, won't come back for 2 and 3. That said, Solo isn't a sequel, it's a prequel / character-backstory movie, so that's very different from being a sequel to a disliked film. I will probably get around to watching Rogue One at some point.

Are the TV shows any good? I hear they are hit-and-miss, some good, some terrible.

Everything in Star Wars is hit and miss.

Solo is a great film all by itself.

Interesting discussion of a trilogy. Looking at Picard I liked Season 1 and despised Season 2. So, should we abandon Season 3?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Everything in Star Wars is hit and miss.

Solo is a great film all by itself.

Interesting discussion of a trilogy. Looking at Picard I liked Season 1 and despised Season 2. So, should we abandon Season 3?

I wouldn't call the Picard show a trilogy per say. Each season tells a complete story with a beginning, middle, and ending spread across 10 episodes. You can watch any one season by itself like a miniseries and have a complete story, watch 2 seasons, or watch all 3.

To answer your question: If you liked S1, despised S2, and asked if you should bail or watch S3, my answer would be: give S3 a shot. My reason: S3 was meant to make up for the 5th movie that didn't happen back in the 00's, and it was also meant to give TNG (the cast) closure. It does not build on S2 in the same way S2 does not build on S1. I would also argue S3 is more comparable to S1. Both seasons tart off with one person in danger, and by season's end, galactic danger.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

That's not what killed it. Fan apathy did. There was no opening weekend. No box office high and then loss.

Harry Potter came out a full month before Nemesis. Die Another Day had three weeks in theaters and LOTR was a week after. Nemesis had a free opening weekend and lost to Maid in Manhattan. And the only reason I remember that movie's name at all is because beat the box office debut of a Star Trek movie.

Sure, it would have lost ground, but it fans were truly interested, it would have at least been something like Star Trek V was: a winner the first weekend and then get pummeled by the more popular competition like Indy Jones III, Ghostbusters 2, Lethal Weapon 2 and, mostly, Batman.

Nemesis gets the blame for killing the franchise for a bit, but it was already out of gas. Too many years of mediocre Star Trek sapped the property of fan interest. I will allow that the leaking of the script into the innerwebs probably didn't help, but fans had a history of going to bad Star Trek if they were interested. But nope. Not this time, and I actually enjoyed the script and the film. I was only disappointed to see so many memorable lines cut from the final print.

After Troi locates the Scimitar, Picard does't order "fire at will!" He gives us a "Savage them!" which I thought would have been amazing from Stewart.

Or when Riker kicks the Viceroy intro the bottomless turbo shaft of doom, he had a nice heroic parting shot "don't worry, hell is dark!"

But jeez, a ton of scenes in the first trailer were missing in the final cut. So that production was fraught.

I disagree. I think Star Trek was going strong right up through Voyager's end in 2001. Back then, everyone was still buzzing about Star Trek like crazy. I think Enterprise crashed and burned because by 2001, most people were watching cable TV, not local TV. Most people I knew back then who liked Star Trek didn't know Enterprise existed. People loved GENS, FC, and INS. All three of these movies had great high-energy advertising too. The trailers for Nemesis just felt old and tired. The movie looks and feels old and tired, and it's just 4 years after the previous film. I think that had a lot to do with people having a "meh" reaction to it. It just lacked the "fun" of the previous 3 films.

I don't think people were bored with Star Trek, I think it's simpler.
UPN cancelled Enterprise and didn't want to do another series.
Paramount hired the absolute wrong director for Nemesis.
Paramount had no idea what to do for #11 until JJ Abrams came along.

Reasonable POV?

 

[fireproof78]

To answer your question: If you liked S1, despised S2, and asked if you should bail or watch S3, my answer would be: give S3 a shot. My reason: S3 was meant to make up for the 5th movie that didn't happen back in the 00's, and it was also meant to give TNG (the cast) closure

Pass.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Pass.

May I ask why? Just curious.

 

[fireproof78]

May I ask why? Just curious.

If I'm going off just Season 2 that pitch doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

If I'm going off just Season 2 that pitch doesn't appeal to me.

I'm confused. Are you actually asking about S3, or are you trying to parallel why I won't watch Disney Wars?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm confused. Are you actually asking about S3, or are you trying to parallel why I won't watch Disney Wars?

Both. I'm taking the question the way I would if I told you "Hey, Season 2 is not good. I'm out" *peace sign."

The parallel for me in Disney Wars is simply that despite being a trilogy and building, there is a different style in each to draw me differently in each one. Not saying they're all good; but then, not all Star Wars/Star Trek/Pirates of the Carribean are good. So, for me, taking a series as "all bad" is not what I would do.

Not, just to be a crazy dude that I am, I also am one to nope out after one episode of a show if the characters don't work. So, this is not a hard and fast rule.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Both. I'm taking the question the way I would if I told you "Hey, Season 2 is not good. I'm out" *peace sign."

The parallel for me in Disney Wars is simply that despite being a trilogy and building, there is a different style in each to draw me differently in each one. Not saying they're all good; but then, not all Star Wars/Star Trek/Pirates of the Carribean are good. So, for me, taking a series as "all bad" is not what I would do.

Not, just to be a crazy dude that I am, I also am one to nope out after one episode of a show if the characters don't work. So, this is not a hard and fast rule.

OK, thank you, I was just trying to figure out how to answer, I do appreciate it.
To me, Picard doesn't really plug in as a trilogy. It's more three disconnected 10-part stories that exist as a 3-season show, because of returning characters more than continued plot. Whereas with a trilogy, it's a beginning, middle, and ending. Picard doesn't work that way. S2 isn't the middle, it's just a separate story. S3 isn't the ending, it's a 3rd story.

Let's just focus on Star Wars sequel trilogy and not Disney Wars as a whole. If I disliked TFA and only saw it once in the theater, what's the incentive to come back for whatever Episode 8 is called? I don't want to see the characters from TFA return, I didn't care about anyone in the movie except the OG cameos.

I watch a lot of movies, I have like almost a thousand on disc, and I have almost 10 streaming services, but I only pay about $33 combined for 5 of them. There's a lot I want to see, but only so much time available to park on the couch for TV time. If I end up not liking a movie, I bail on sequels, go watch something I do want to watch. In all honestly, I'm more excited about those old "Pink Panther" movies than Star Wars.

 

[fireproof78]

OK, thank you, I was just trying to figure out how to answer, I do appreciate it.
To me, Picard doesn't really plug in as a trilogy. It's more three disconnected 10-part stories that exist as a 3-season show, because of returning characters more than continued plot. Whereas with a trilogy, it's a beginning, middle, and ending. Picard doesn't work that way. S2 isn't the middle, it's just a separate story. S3 isn't the ending, it's a 3rd story.

Let's just focus on Star Wars sequel trilogy and not Disney Wars as a whole. If I disliked TFA and only saw it once in the theater, what's the incentive to come back for whatever Episode 8 is called? I don't want to see the characters from TFA return, I didn't care about anyone in the movie except the OG cameos.

I watch a lot of movies, I have like almost a thousand on disc, and I have almost 10 streaming services, but I only pay about $33 combined for 5 of them. There's a lot I want to see, but only so much time available to park on the couch for TV time. If I end up not liking a movie, I bail on sequels, go watch something I do want to watch. In all honestly, I'm more excited about those old "Pink Panther" movies than Star Wars.

You do you then, my friend. I'm only noting that there is a variety to experience.

But, I also don't watch many films or shows. I enjoy few, not many, and I agree that time is limited. So, you do what you think is best for your time. I just move through series in a different way than most.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

You do you then, my friend. I'm only noting that there is a variety to experience.

But, I also don't watch many films or shows. I enjoy few, not many, and I agree that time is limited. So, you do what you think is best for your time. I just move through series in a different way than most.

Fair enough. I'm guessing we differ in this:
You: 1st movie was lame, maybe #2 will be better?
Me: 1st movie was lame, time to watch something else.
Does that about sum up how we differ?

 

[fireproof78]

Fair enough. I'm guessing we differ in this:
You: 1st movie was lame, maybe #2 will be better?
Me: 1st movie was lame, time to watch something else.
Does that about sum up how we differ?

Close enough for jazz.

 

[Phoenix219]

Definitely a very chilling moment!

Also, I can't thank PIC enough for giving the TNG crew a proper ending. For more than 20 years, the disaster of NEM was the last thing we had seen of the TNG crew, and I found this ending tragically unsatisfying.

And although PIC S3 is far from perfect, it did this one thing right: It gave them a wonderful, moving send-off.

It made me forgive decades of resentment after Generations. Genesis II and Kirk's body helped. It helped me realize that I had nostalgia and love for the (first half, anyways) of TNG, and made me revisit for the first time since childhood.

I still stopped at the Best of Both Worlds, though. lol.

 

[Phoenix219]

Using Picard as example, if synth-Picard is flesh and blood at least if you don't look too closely, does the word android not cease to apply? I feel like Coppulus was a mix of androids and synths. What do you think?

Picard's consciousness: copy-and-paste without error, synth-Picard lives and does exactly as what human-Picard would have lived and done, I can buy that in the world of Star Trek.

My question: how does "cut and paste" work? How do you physically remove the consciousness from the original human Picard? I feel like you can't do this, only copy-and-paste. Have you seen The 6th Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger? This was how cloning was handled, copy-and-paste, but so perfect that the clone was treated as an equal to the original.

really under-rated movie. the way they back up their memories daily / before missions should be part of the daily StarFleet regimen, with transporter patterns.

 

[Phoenix219]

I read it over, but it still strikes me as "copying" the mind, not cut-and-paste.
I agree with Picard being synth and not an android. It's just the dialogue in S1 is a little clunky.
I love the idea of "cheating death" in fiction through cloning and similar ideas.
To me, if "Bob" dies, but his consciousness is preserved in real time and then uploaded into an organic, synthetic, android, or whatever clone, is this really Bob? For me, it's both yes and no. It's Bob in that his consciousness continues into a cloned body, but the original Bob still died.

Circling back to Picard, the S1 finale is very emotional for me, because as far as I'm concerned, that was the death of Jean-Luc Picard. However, it being 2399 and having died on synth world, his consciousness (and body) were perfectly cloned (synthed?) onto Soong's Golem. Picard 2.0, while a copy of Picard, is also for all intents and purposes Jean-Luc Picard. It's not like there's 2 of him running around.

this conversation makes Roger Korby very very sad.

 

[Phoenix219]

NEM should never have killed off Data.
PIC S1 should never have killed of "real" Picard.
Modern Hollywood loves destroying beloved legacies.

GEN should never have killed Jim Kirk.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

this conversation makes Roger Korby very very sad.

That's basically a summary of What Are Little Girls Made Of?

 

[Phoenix219]

That's basically a summary of What Are Little Girls Made Of?

The whole conversation in general going on around there in the thread - that JLP is given the respect of being considered the original, but Korby wasn't, he was just a corrupt and deluded android copy.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think Star Trek was going strong right up through Voyager's end in 2001. Back then, everyone was still buzzing about Star Trek like crazy.

Not really. Star Trek's popularity peaked around 1996. Even before then, Generations had failed to light the box office on fire and DS9 and Voyager were getting noticeably less ratings than TNG. Though to be fair, they actually weren't doing bad numbers at the time, they just didn't have the mega success TNG had. Anyway, the franchise had a brief resurgence of popularity in 96 probably due to the 30th anniversary celebrations and First Contact did reasonably well at the box office. After that things were in noticeable decline. By 1998 I began seeing magazine articles on a regular basis noting the franchise seemed to be in its death throes, which became even more evident later that year when Insurrection had a rather tepid box office reaction. After that, it was in gradual decline until Enterprise's cancellation in 2005.

GEN should never have killed Jim Kirk.

TOS was 28 years old at the time and there were no plans to revisit it or its characters. Why not close the door and provide closure to its lead character?

 

[Phoenix219]

Not really. Star Trek's popularity peaked around 1996. Even before then, Generations had failed to light the box office on fire and DS9 and Voyager were getting noticeably less ratings than TNG. Though to be fair, they actually weren't doing bad numbers at the time, they just didn't have the mega success TNG had. Anyway, the franchise had a brief resurgence of popularity in 96 probably due to the 30th anniversary celebrations and First Contact did reasonably well at the box office. After that things were in noticeable decline. By 1998 I began seeing magazine articles on a regular basis noting the franchise seemed to be in its death throes, which became even more evident later that year when Insurrection had a rather tepid box office reaction. After that, it was in gradual decline until Enterprise's cancellation in 2005.

TOS was 28 years old at the time and there were no plans to revisit it or its characters. Why not close the door and provide closure to its lead charac

Why a disappointing downer ending to a beloved character as opposed to the happy ending we had already received? Upbeat and open-ended was the way to go.