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S1 vs. S2 vs. S3 (comparing seasons)

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I'll say it flat out, and have in the past, but TWOK is not the best Star Trek movie in my opinion. It's a good movie, but just an action movie with a revenge plot, that happens to be in the ST universe.
Agreed, but in the context of, "Why does there need to be a best movie?" Even if TWOF is the best, why keep copying the formula? Imagine if another movie saga just kept remaking the "best one" and disguising the remake as "the next sequel." It will get stale fast.

I specifically love the 6 TOS movies because they are all so different!
TMP = cosmic mystery
TWOK = revenge until the end
TSFS = sacrifice everything for one person
TVH = the comedy
TFF = WTF was Shatner thinking?
TUC = Meyer's back for a 2nd film, BIG finale! (wipes away man tears)
 
What do you think of synth-Picard? I was hoping this would be explored later on. Is Picard dead, and is this Picard 2.0? Is this just original Picard "transferred" into a synth body? This was never dived into, but it should have. Everyone's just like, "Oh, you died, and you're a robot now? Cool, let's play cards."

Shinzon as Picard's son -- have never thought about it, but now as you mention it, it's a great idea, and I agree, it would have worked much better!

I had more or less forgotten Picard got a synthetic body when watching S2 and S3 ... it's one of the many interesting ideas they threw in, but then more or less forgot about, rather than doing something meaningful with it. So many other ideas they didn't follow after dropping them ...

Another thing that irritated me, is that after the huge development of the Borg in S2, Agnes becoming their Queen and agreement with the Federation, nothing of that is mentioned again in S3, but they just resetted the Borg back to default Borg.
 
Shinzon as Picard's son -- have never thought about it, but now as you mention it, it's a great idea, and I agree, it would have worked much better!

I had more or less forgotten Picard got a synthetic body when watching S2 and S3 ... it's one of the many interesting ideas they threw in, but then more or less forgot about, rather than doing something meaningful with it. So many other ideas they didn't follow after dropping them ...

Another thing that irritated me, is that after the huge development of the Borg in S2, Agnes becoming their Queen and agreement with the Federation, nothing of that is mentioned again in S3, but they just resetted the Borg back to default Borg.
Thanks for the Shinzon as Picard's son idea compliment.

Picard as a synth was briefly name dropped a few times in S2, but they didn't do anything with it.
Picard as a synth kind of played a role in S3, but only to the extent that Picard's original body was stolen from the Jupiter station (forget the name) for nefarious reasons. That was basically it.

The friendly Juratti-Queen Borg didn't need to be in S3, but they definitely should have been name dropped. Have someone bring them up, Picard says it's too risky, and LaForge knowing what the Ent-D can and cannot do says there's no time. That would have been fine right there.

In S2-3, I would have loved it if they explored in depth the ideas behind whether this is really Picard or synth Picard (AKA Picard 2.). Human-Picard died. If synth-Picard is a 100% legit copy of human-Picard, then in a sense, he died "and" cheated death at the same time. How many Star Trek episodes across numerous series treated a perfect copy as "not the real person" over the years?
 
The impression I got with synth-Picard is that it's basically a body swap situation, except he swapped into an empty body and let his original one die. He's not a copy, he's the original... because Q wouldn't waste his time harassing a copy.
 
I don't think Picard's consciousness is a copy. I think his consciousness was transferred to a synthetic body. Meaning that his body is synthesized flesh and blood, not circuits and wires.

Picard's scene with Data at the end of S1 is what's going on while his mind is being transferred.

As far as Picard's consciousness: Cutting and pasting a post of mine last year where I found research on this concept.

link

Here's an article on transferring consciousness. Masataka Watanabe, a Scientist from the University of Tokyo, is working on a theory for how to do this, and it and it's interesting:
Rethinking our consciousness: An approach to a scientifically feasible seamless mind-uploading (researchfeatures.com)

Cutting-and-pasting because I'm not going to butcher what they're saying by putting it into my own words:

Seamless uploading of human consciousness
Previous ideas on mind uploading rely on scanning postmortem brains for a digital reconstruction of the brain’s circuitry. However, Watanabe argues that in these cases, ‘you’ are unfortunately not the one that lives on. In contrast, he presents a process where our own consciousness seamlessly continues in a digital arena. This process mimics that of a patient undergoing corpus callosotomy, where the neural fibres connecting the two cortical hemispheres are severed, resulting in the generation of two independent streams of consciousness. The point is, both streams of consciousness stem seamlessly from the original, and there is no point of death upon severance.
To recreate this procedure for seamless mind uploading, Watanabe suggests that a transition state must be provided where the left biological hemisphere is connected and consciously integrated to a device that plays the role of the right hemisphere, and vice versa. He puts forward a three-step procedure to realise this transition state. Firstly, a device with neutral consciousness is prepared, then this is connected to our own brain while we are alive, and gradually our memory is transferred over.
In the first step, a neutrally conscious device is constructed. Watanabe explains, ‘The idea is to prepare a spiking neural network (SNN) that replicates the full connectivity of the human brain.’ To do this, he suggests that we look to scanning electron microscopy – producing detailed images of thin brain slices with a focused beam of electrons. The obtained image slices are stacked together and used to reconstruct the 3D neuronal connectivity within the brain. In this way, the neuronal brain fibres (called axons and dendrites) are reconstructed to yield full neural connectivity. Watanabe continues, ‘From there, to determine the fine quantitative values of neuronal connectivity and develop the device into a visual system for instance, we can show it a life’s worth of video material. If we find that the network needs a body that interacts with its environment, we can supply it with a virtual body.’ This procedure of ‘training’ the device would be very much like training a modern deep learning neural network. By using advanced methods for training SNNs, the final result should mimic a human brain. Once this is achieved, neutral consciousness, or a ‘one-size-fits-all’ type of consciousness, would likely kick in.
Second, this neutrally conscious device must be linked with our brain hemisphere to allow the integration of consciousness. For this, Watanabe proposes a radical new type of brain–machine interface, explained in more detail below. In the final stage, memory is transferred to the device. This step includes natural and forced (microstimulation) memory retrieval in the biological hemisphere, leading to synchronised retrieval in the artificial hemisphere due to integrated consciousness between the two. Finally, memory consolidation is achieved in the device side with brain-like mechanisms.
Once the consciousness is fully integrated and a sufficient number of memories have been transferred, we would be ready to face the inevitable closure of the two biological hemispheres. This closure would be similar to the surgical procedure of corpus callosotomy, but in this case, the consciousness will seamlessly continue in the two mechanical hemispheres, to be integrated later.

The article continues but that's the gist of it. It ends with saying all of this is still theoretical.
 
Agreed, but in the context of, "Why does there need to be a best movie?" Even if TWOF is the best, why keep copying the formula? Imagine if another movie saga just kept remaking the "best one" and disguising the remake as "the next sequel." It will get stale fast.

I specifically love the 6 TOS movies because they are all so different!
TMP = cosmic mystery
TWOK = revenge until the end
TSFS = sacrifice everything for one person
TVH = the comedy
TFF = WTF was Shatner thinking?
TUC = Meyer's back for a 2nd film, BIG finale! (wipes away man tears)
Similarly, this is what I love about Picard. It followed the same model as the TOS Movies. Every season is something different.

PIC Season 1 --> Saving Soji, Android Rights, and uncovering an intricate Romulan plot.
PIC Season 2 --> Saving the future by making sure Humanity's highest ideals aren't sabotaged.
PIC Season 3 --> The Borg Queen & a Rogue Changeling want revenge on the Federation.
 
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The impression I got with synth-Picard is that it's basically a body swap situation, except he swapped into an empty body and let his original one die. He's not a copy, he's the original... because Q wouldn't waste his time harassing a copy.
The reason I think of synth-Picard as a copy is because you can rework the blank synth brain to be a perfect copy of whatever's going on in the human brain. However, you're not "emptying" the human brain into the synth brain. I don't think it works that way.
 
I don't think Picard's consciousness is a copy. I think his consciousness was transferred to a synthetic body. Meaning that his body is synthesized flesh and blood, not circuits and wires.

Picard's scene with Data at the end of S1 is what's going on while his mind is being transferred.

As far as Picard's consciousness: Cutting and pasting a post of mine last year where I found research on this concept.

link
Using Picard as example, if synth-Picard is flesh and blood at least if you don't look too closely, does the word android not cease to apply? I feel like Coppulus was a mix of androids and synths. What do you think?

Picard's consciousness: copy-and-paste without error, synth-Picard lives and does exactly as what human-Picard would have lived and done, I can buy that in the world of Star Trek.

My question: how does "cut and paste" work? How do you physically remove the consciousness from the original human Picard? I feel like you can't do this, only copy-and-paste. Have you seen The 6th Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger? This was how cloning was handled, copy-and-paste, but so perfect that the clone was treated as an equal to the original.
 
Using Picard as example, if synth-Picard is flesh and blood at least if you don't look too closely, does the word android not cease to apply? I feel like Coppulus was a mix of androids and synths. What do you think?

Picard's consciousness: copy-and-paste without error, synth-Picard lives and does exactly as what human-Picard would have lived and done, I can buy that in the world of Star Trek.

My question: how does "cut and paste" work? How do you physically remove the consciousness from the original human Picard? I feel like you can't do this, only copy-and-paste. Have you seen The 6th Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger? This was how cloning was handled, copy-and-paste, but so perfect that the clone was treated as an equal to the original.
Read the article I linked to from the University of Tokyo, that explains how mind-transfer would work in theory.

And I don't think Picard's an android. He's a synth.

Terry Matalas gave his thoughts on this as well. When I find the interview (can't promise it'll be today), I'll quote the relevant part. I think he should've made it more clear in Season 2 or 3 itself, as opposed to mostly dropping it.
 
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Read the article I linked to from the University of Tokyo, that explains how mind-transfer would work in theory.

And I don't think Picard's an android. He's a synth.

Terry Matalas gave his thoughts on this as well. When I find the interview, I'll quote the relevant part. I think he should've made it more clear in Season 2 or 3 itself, as opposed to mostly dropping it.
I read it over, but it still strikes me as "copying" the mind, not cut-and-paste.
I agree with Picard being synth and not an android. It's just the dialogue in S1 is a little clunky.
I love the idea of "cheating death" in fiction through cloning and similar ideas.
To me, if "Bob" dies, but his consciousness is preserved in real time and then uploaded into an organic, synthetic, android, or whatever clone, is this really Bob? For me, it's both yes and no. It's Bob in that his consciousness continues into a cloned body, but the original Bob still died.

Circling back to Picard, the S1 finale is very emotional for me, because as far as I'm concerned, that was the death of Jean-Luc Picard. However, it being 2399 and having died on synth world, his consciousness (and body) were perfectly cloned (synthed?) onto Soong's Golem. Picard 2.0, while a copy of Picard, is also for all intents and purposes Jean-Luc Picard. It's not like there's 2 of him running around.
 
My question: how does "cut and paste" work? How do you physically remove the consciousness from the original human Picard? I feel like you can't do this, only copy-and-paste. Have you seen The 6th Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger? This was how cloning was handled, copy-and-paste, but so perfect that the clone was treated as an equal to the original.
We've seen it done before, as far back as TOS episodes like Return to Tomorrow and Turnabout Intruder. Also What Are Little Girls Made Of with Roger Korby... kind of. After what happened there I'm not surprised Uhura didn't get a robot body in I, Mudd.

Anyway, I think synth-Picard has to be a consciousness transferral not a consciousness copy, because the process was done entirely for Picard's benefit, and he doesn't benefit from another Picard walking off with all his stuff.
 
We've seen it done before, as far back as TOS episodes like Return to Tomorrow and Turnabout Intruder. Also What Are Little Girls Made Of with Roger Korby... kind of. After what happened there I'm not surprised Uhura didn't get a robot body in I, Mudd.

Anyway, I think synth-Picard has to be a consciousness transferral not a consciousness copy, because the process was done entirely for Picard's benefit, and he doesn't benefit from another Picard walking off with all his stuff.
I'll be on the watch out for those two TOS episodes as I work through my Blu-ray sets. Thanks!
I loved "What Are Little Girls Made Of," and I was surprised that robo-Kirk was killed so casually.
I was sad that ancient-giant-robo-man was killed just as casually. "We can make another one." :eek::confused:
I like to think Roger Korby died and didn't die. He died in that the original Roger Korby is long dead, but I buy a perfect consciousness survived into his robo-clone. He really believed he was Roger right to the very end. In the climax, who shot who? Was it robo-lady or robo-Roger who pulled the trigger? Either way, it was very tragic. I think robo-Roger's downfall was that he just could not let go of "making people better," that's what killed him more than anything else.

What is consciousness anyway? In a scientific sense, is consciousness not simply how the brain is mapped, data stored biochemically and cellularly, the collective whole of all the cells and chemicals collectively connecting and firing in real time? This is a physical construct. You can copy this to another brain, and that brain is now for all intents and purposes the same as the original. However, this doesn't cancel out the original brain's mapping, cellular and biochemical data, synaptic pathways and synaptic discharges and everything.

This is why I think you can copy, but not transfer. In the case of mind swap, Brain B has been remapped to be Brain A, and Brain A has been remapped to be Brain B. Yes? No?
 
I think one of the fundamental differences between TOS and TNG is that TOS fears AI while TNG embraces it. Data, the Exocomps, Minuet, arguably Moriarty. Juliana Tainer is allowed to live out her life in "Inheritance" rather than be told what she really is. Something that wouldn't have happened in TOS.
 
I think one of the fundamental differences between TOS and TNG is that TOS fears AI while TNG embraces it. Data, the Exocomps, Minuet, arguably Moriarty. Juliana Tainer is allowed to live out her life in "Inheritance" rather than be told what she really is. Something that wouldn't have happened in TOS.
This is very true. I might have also been thinking of Stargate where AI is never considered equal to biological life.
 
I can understand the dislike for Season 2 (or at least its duller middle episodes), but Annie Wersching's performance as a humbled, more self-reflecting Borg Queen (before her very untimely passing) often gets overlooked.

Season 1 is very different to Season 3 but feels almost a complete package by itself.
 
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I can understand the dislike for Season 2 (or at least its duller middle episodes), but Annie Wersching's performance as a humbled, more self-reflected Borg Queen (before her very untimely passing) often gets overlooked.

Season 1 is very different to Season 3 but feels almost a complete package by itself.
Really, each season is basically a 10-hour serial with a distinct beginning, middle, and ending.
Yes, the Borg Queen is one of the best parts in S2.
 
NEM should never have killed off Data.
PIC S1 should never have killed of "real" Picard.
Modern Hollywood loves destroying beloved legacies.
From what I remember: TNG was bowing out with S7 with an open-ended finale, opting for movies over S8. The cast signed 3-picture contracts. Part of why we had to wait 4 years for Nemesis, they had to renegotiate contracts to get everyone back. I'm pretty sure Michael Dorn was last minute, because he's barely in the movie, and a lot of scenes that would normally be Worf were given to other characters. I'm pretty sure Brent Spiner said he wouldn't do the movie unless he was killed off. Alternatively, the movie could have ended with him leaving the Enterprise to pursue something else. :shrug:

The idea behind Nemesis was that it would be their final film or lead into a final film. This gave the advertising double meaning. "A Generation's Final Journey Begins." Final journey begins, meaning this is the last movie. If it made money, then it means leading into the last movie. They needed a different director Stewart Baird didn't give a shit and was just there for the paycheck. I'm sure he can make a good movie, but he seemed to give zero shits about Star Trek, and it shows. Everything about the movie just felt "old and tired," and it's only 4 years after Insurrection, 6 years after Fist Contact. What the hell happened?

Sometimes characters get killed off either because the actor wants to move on from the role, or because the series (whether TV or film) is ending, and character deaths can bring some finality. Given Data's memory dump into B4, it left the door open for his essence to survive, which it did as revealed in Picard (the series).

Picard is my favorite TNG character and my favorite Star Trek character overall. I actually like that he died in the S1 finale. It circled back to TNG's "All Good Things..." and showed that heroes can grow old and go down dying for what they believe in. Some people see Synth Picard as same man, new body, but not me. I see him as Picard 2.0, a perfect synthetic copy of Picard, minus the brain problem. For all intents and purposes, he's living the life real-Picard would be living had he not died and his brain condition cured on Coppulus by Soong and friends. Given that, Picard 2.0 is effectively real-Picard survived by his consciousness being digitally cloned into a synth body that's more or less the same as his human body. Technically, Picard died. Functionally and from everyone else's point of view, Picard survived. I really wish the human/synth angle of Picard had been explored across S2 and S3. It's not that he died and came back as a synth, it's that it's virtually forgotten about in subsequent seasons. This should have been as life altering as being assimilated and Wolf 359 or "The Inner Light" episode.

By Hollywood, do you mean the industry? If yes, I mostly agree, but that's mostly because everything got political when Trump was in office, and come the 2020's, movies shifted from fun to "you're wrong, we're right, you're stupid, let us educate you, PRRRRREEEAAAACH!!!!" No one goes to the movies for this.
 
By Hollywood, do you mean the industry? If yes, I mostly agree, but that's mostly because everything got political when Trump was in office, and come the 2020's, movies shifted from fun to "you're wrong, we're right, you're stupid, let us educate you, PRRRRREEEAAAACH!!!!" No one goes to the movies for this.
Yeah I know what you mean, it's like Trump's rise in politics really brain broke Hollywood and the industry. Ironically they used to shower love and praise on this guy non-stop until he ran for politics.
 
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