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Spoilers The Acolyte

When Torbin emerges from his trance, he tells Mae that he’s been waiting for her. When did he discover that she’s alive, and why doesn’t Sol seem to know? Do Indara and Kelnacca know?
"Through Force things you will see; other places, the future, the past, old friends long gone."

By all accounts Torbin had spent the last decade doing nothing but floating and communing with the force. I wouldn't be surprised if he's seen the exact moment of his death more times than he can count by that point, and thus knew Mae was coming long before even she did.
Indara is adamant in “Choice” that they not take Osha’s dream of being a Jedi. Yet ten years later, she recommends that her training be terminated. What happened?
She changed her mind? People do that sometimes, especially over the course of a decade. Also, there's a difference between agreeing with the training of a potential Padawan, and thinking she still has what it takes ten years down the line. Sometimes potentials aren't realised.

Indeed we know that Osha is to all intents and purposes; half of a person. Without Mae she's fundamentally unbalanced. That's not something a Jedi can be and expect to pass the trial of spirit. It'd literally be facing the mirror with no reflection.
I suspect by that point Indara could see Osha couldn't overcome her state of being.

There may be more to it of course; we'll just have to wait and see.
 
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Why does it take Indara so long to recognize her attacker in the first episode? She calls her “young woman” and describes her on the comm as an “unidentified Force user.”

She hasn’t seen Mae since she was eight, but she knew Mae’s identical twin as an 18-year old padawan. Six years and a cloth covering the lower half of her face shouldn’t make her unrecognizable.
 
I’m starting to think this season- or series-long mystery format just doesn’t work on TV. We’ve been burned by the ending too many times.
Not here. I usually abhor mysteries, and being bated with information to be revealed later on. Unsurprisingly, Columbo is my favourite crime drama, because it tells the mystery at the start.

Yet I have loved The Acolyte with barely any complaints. Perhaps because they didn't try to drop some big reveal to resolve the Brendok mystery which would have doubtlessly not have liven up to the hype, but went for the most narratively surprising choice to show us how the events unfolded like a good old regular clusterfuck, with no big wow moments, but a series of small but satisfying to watch missteps that lead to where we are. Certainly not bothered that it didn't answer every question, we have our imagination – I'll admit there I would have had Torbin done something worse, but there I'd probably be wrong. He's the padawan, he's not learned to let go yet, he's not even learned to accept the result of his choices, he'll feel more responsible than the knights.

Or perhaps it's because even when teasing the mystery of what happened, the show hasn't done it in a way screaming that it will give us something that will make our jaws drop. At least not for me. The only place I've been getting that from is the plethora reactions of how they “made the Jedi evil” as an interpretation of the first Brendok episode, not the show itself.
 
I'm very late to the discussion since I only just had the chance to watch the episode, unfortunately. I'm certain there's already been plenty of discussion about the revelations of this flashback, the nature of everyone's individual agendas (and how some go against each others as allies), who exactly are these witches, and the apparent true nature of Osha and Mae. All of which I'll go back and read when I'm done here.

However, I want to focus on something I'm guessing no one has talked about this past week. We've already known about the arrogance of the Jedi, how they view themselves within the Galaxy, and what they think about the Force itself. Sol especially comes off bad in this episode and it's not just him.

But a different kind of arrogance stood out to me in this episode. Just the most ordinary, basic sense of arrogance. When the four Jedi approach the coven's stronghold, there doesn't appear to be any attempt to try reach out and ask for entry. No courtesy, no presumption of privacy, nothing. Simply break open the door and waltz right in like they have the right to be there. Indara may have been the most even-minded of the four but she was the one who directed such actions.

I'm probably looking at this too much and just covering the same old ground (the prequels certainly provided plenty of fodder on this matter) but such rooted arrogance really stood out to me in that moment that it was hard to shake if off, even during the staggering events of the rest of the episode.
 
I'm probably looking at this too much and just covering the same old ground (the prequels certainly provided plenty of fodder on this matter) but such rooted arrogance really stood out to me in that moment that it was hard to shake if off, even during the staggering events of the rest of the episode.
The Jedi are the classic sense of hubris in this story and it's fantastic in its presentation, even if it doesn't reveal anything new. What it does is show how the Jedi view power and their interest in controlling it. The Coven, for all the other creepy aspects, are correct that the Jedi have a specific view on power and who has the right to wield it.

The Jedi appear to have a false overconfidence that they are the only ones, that their way is the way.
 
Didn’t Jedi Master Trinity make some comment to Sol about them being “only women and children” or something like that, as if they were relatively harmless and easy to subdue when things were starting to get spooled up? That goes beyond simple hubris. They already knew that these witches were highly skilled force-users and dangerous adversaries. WTF was she thinking? This series is kind of pissing me off now.
 
Nice that Nightsisters at least got a name drop for those confused by the concept of there being more than one kind of witch in a galaxy of millions of planets and quintillions of people. Though Indara's line that "Nightsisters don't raise younglings" is a curious one given that we know that they do indeed have children (at least half a dozen that we're aware of for a fact.) So she's either misinformed, or she means they don't go out and "recruit" younglings in the way the Jedi do.
I liked that shout out, too. Good to have that clarity since Ahsoka (and more recently as a direction, Tales of the Empire) focused so much on the Nightsisters themselves.

That said, I still find it curious that Headland chose to use the term witches for this group of women. I fine with them not being Nightsisters, how they weren't connected with Ahsoka's revelations about the Nightsisters, and how they had a strong religious goal in mind (one that isn't entirely clear still). But why "witches" and not some other term? It's certainly not a big deal, just a creative niggle that I'm having.

So the assumption is that the Coven came here because of the vergence and used it to create Mae and Osha; splitting one consciousness into two bodies . . . so they could inherit Aniseya's power and position? I think we're still missing some context here, but with one episode left I can't imagine we'll be getting any more insights into this.
There's definitely more to learn here and I'm also skeptical will get any answers in the finale, which will clearly focus more on the immediate Qimir situation. Hopefully we do get a second season to explore exactly what's going on there and not get a quick, vague answer in the season finale to seemingly tie it off.

I get how the fire outside Osha's room got out of control so quickly (dropping a whole damn lamp's worth of fuel will do that!) but it still seemed to spread a little too fast for a place mostly made of stone and a few old timbers. Maybe the wiring was so old and unsafe, the damage the initial fire caused was enough to short everything else out and start electicial fires all over, setting off some of the old mining equipment until it blew the generator? I guess more time actually passed than we directly experianced, and the fire had more time to spread than it appeared to.
I could surmise that there was some sort of power system malfunction caused by the fire that had been started by Mae, the fire that appeared to have accidentally gotten away from her, actually a cascade of power system malfunctions, if you will, that ultimately resulted in an fatal explosion. Such an explanation seems to have been implied, but there are several moving parts there that require the viewer to connect some dots, and I'm left wondering, did they literally run out of money to show us the 'splosion? Why couldn't they simply show us a 'splosion? Why get coy? Is there still actually more here going on? Is the rest of the coven not actually dead (as some have already speculated)?
That really bugged me, too. For me, the only missing revelation from this episode was in regards to how a fire that originated at control panel could destroy an entire mining stronghold. I thought we were going to see that the main fire was actually started somewhere else that happened to line up with Mae's, but no such thing. Evidentially we're suppose to accept that everything was so old and corroded for the fire to spread so catastrophically, but it just doesn't feel right. We're probably overthinking it but it still bugs me. Oh, well.

The titles come in pairs:

Lost/Found & Revenge/Justice
Destiny & Choice
Day & Night
Teach/Corrupt & Ep 8

If the pattern holds, it will be another slashie, a positive term followed by a negative term. Since the first three slashies consisted of adjectives, nouns, and verbs, I’m guessing Ep 8 will be adverbs.

Any guesses?
Oh, neat catch there about the part of speeches for the dual titles. I'm not entirely sure it's not a coincidence but it would be cool if that was something deliberately done by Headland.

As for guesses, I'm terrible at such things. :lol:

The Jedi are the classic sense of hubris in this story and it's fantastic in its presentation, even if it doesn't reveal anything new. What it does is show how the Jedi view power and their interest in controlling it. The Coven, for all the other creepy aspects, are correct that the Jedi have a specific view on power and who has the right to wield it.

The Jedi appear to have a false overconfidence that they are the only ones, that their way is the way.
Hubris. That's the word I was looking for. Thank you (to you and a couple of other people said the same thing).

And I noticed that some people were in fact talking about this very thing, just not quite as hyperfocused on that one particular moment like I was. :lol:
 
That really bugged me, too. For me, the only missing revelation from this episode was in regards to how a fire that originated at control panel could destroy an entire mining stronghold. I thought we were going to see that the main fire was actually started somewhere else that happened to line up with Mae's, but no such thing. Evidentially we're suppose to accept that everything was so old and corroded for the fire to spread so catastrophically, but it just doesn't feel right. We're probably overthinking it but it still bugs me. Oh, well.
It’s an antique facility that isn’t designed to put out fires autonomously. Normally there would be people taking the necessary steps to fight a fire, but since every witch in the coven was entranced with possessing Kelnacca and every Jedi was busy fighting Kelnacca, nobody was dealing with the fire. Just really horrible timing.
 
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It’s an antique facility that isn’t designed to put out fires autonomously. Normally there would be people taking the necessary steps to fight a fire, but since every witch in the coven was entranced with possessing Kelnacca and every Jedi was busy fighting Kelnacca, nobody was dealing with the fire. Just really horrible timing.
Perhaps. I'm looking at it from a purely physical standpoint. You need of material to feed that fire and it didn't feel like that structure had that much. Just a lot of rock and metal equipment. I'm probably just overthinking it.

Because it's an all-women group with power. In making them understandable to an audience, it just fits.
Yeah, I figured that was the answer but it feels too...cliché. I dunno. Again, I'm probably overthinking it. :lol:
 
I liked that shout out, too. Good to have that clarity since Ahsoka (and more recently as a direction, Tales of the Empire) focused so much on the Nightsisters themselves.

That said, I still find it curious that Headland chose to use the term witches for this group of women. I fine with them not being Nightsisters, how they weren't connected with Ahsoka's revelations about the Nightsisters, and how they had a strong religious goal in mind (one that isn't entirely clear still). But why "witches" and not some other term? It's certainly not a big deal, just a creative niggle that I'm having.
As @Commander Troi says, I think it's mostly just an easy shorthand for "explicitly all female force cult", but it could also be more specifically mean "explicitly all female force cult that practices ritualistic force use and harnesses primordial magicks".

It could also have a somewhat derogatory connotation too, as if this isn't "proper" use of the force, but a primitive means that steeped in superstitious beliefs or mystical affectations as a means to intimidate and engender fear and awe. Another factor could be their tendency, or at least willingness to lean to the dark side. Even if that's not always necessarily the case, the Nightsisters may have left enough of an imprint on galactic culture from their Witch-kingdom building days for the two to become synonymous.

We've also seen the word "Wizard" and "Sorcerer" used in Star Wars to refer to force use (even if inaccurately), so maybe there's a whole glossary of terms for practitioners of different types of force use. One might even speculate: -

  • Warlocks: Like witches, but all-male covens.
  • Necromancers: Uses a combination of psychometry and meditation to affect a means to channel the spirits of the dead - or more accuratly; their lingering memories imprinted upon the force.
  • Shamans (highly ritualistic and uses psychoactive substances (and nose lizards) to induce force visions, most often found in primitive tribal societies.
  • Conjurers: Mostly employing illusion, trickery, and even sleight of hand. Probably mostly synonymous with "charlatan", as they were often not actual force users, just grifters employing simple tricks and spouting nonsense.
  • Soothsayers: Use force visions to predict the future via meditation, or ritualistic means.
  • Scryers: Like soothsayers, but by a method that employs some sort of external device or mechanism to divine.
  • Sages: Philosopher and advisor. Probably the closest to Jedi in outlook, but not so much with the martial practices.
I can see a time in the galaxy where a lot of these things were way more common and widestread, and just about every planetary court and Star Kingdom had some stripe of force user as advisors, bodyguards, or powerbrokers. Most could be fairly weak by what we think of as force users, since perhaps it was the Jedi that discovered midichlorians and they were the new cult on the block and the first to focus on training only those with high m-counts, quickly leaving most of the others in the dust.
Perhaps. I'm looking at it from a purely physical standpoint. You need of material to feed that fire and it didn't feel like that structure had that much. Just a lot of rock and metal equipment. I'm probably just overthinking it.
It's an old mining facility; there could be all kinds of equipment and materials still stored there that could be quite volatile and in deep disrepair.

Maybe once the internal power grid starts to short on one place, it overloads in another starting a lot of small electrical fires in others. Maybe one fire starts in whatever room they store the fuel for those lamps, which I wouldn't be surprised if they also use for cooking fuel, and so is also stored near the kitchen. One might be surprised the sorts of thing that can catch fire easily just in a normal household, even in the kitchen and/or pantry there's things like cooking oil and even certain powdered food can cause quite the explosion if aerosolised (ever seen that Mythbusters episode with the creamer explosion!?) Once things start exploding, anything else around that can explode usually will, so it can escalate fast!

As I said though; another factor could be the mere illusion of the quick passage of time, thanks to editing. Mae and Osha's room is quite high up near the top of the fortress; even going full pelt it would have taken Mae a few minutes to make it down into the courtyard below. Also Osha would need enough time crawling around in the vents to actually get down *underneath* the main floor when the first explosion hits. Even being able to take a more direct route between levels, it'd take a while.
 
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I believe the first mention of a witch was the woman who could change into a crow in the Battle for Endor TV movie in the mid-80s. I believe the old EU retroactively made her a stranded Nightsister.
 
I do wish the disaster hadn't hinged so much on Torbin being a whiny bitch, though. That was pretty weak stuff.
To be fair it wasn't entire his fault since Aniseya fucked with his head to make him even more obsessed with going back to Coruscant.
It wasn't totally clear in the episode, though. Shouldn't need an interview to clarify.
I thought it was perfectly clear, the witches were controlling Kelnacca, the Jedi severed that connection and then they died. So clearly severing the connection killed them, I don't see where it needs any more explanation than that.
 
I think a couple extra lines of dialogue could have helped with some complaints I've seen about this episode. Like, some were wondering why Torbin was so desperate to go back to Coruscant. They probably could have mentioned that this was Torbin's first off-world mission as Indara's padawan, and had spent his whole life (or at least all of it that he can remember) on Coruscant, so he was homesick and anxious to get out of this endless wilderness. With Indara fighting the witches over control of Kelnacca's mind, they could have had Sol ask her what was happening, Indara could have said something about the coven fighting her, and if she severed the link by force the witches would die, forcing Indara to make a choice (and obviously she chooses Kelnacca).

People would still complain, but small additions like those might have helped a bit.
 
I think a couple extra lines of dialogue could have helped with some complaints I've seen about this episode. Like, some were wondering why Torbin was so desperate to go back to Coruscant. They probably could have mentioned that this was Torbin's first off-world mission as Indara's padawan, and had spent his whole life (or at least all of it that he can remember) on Coruscant, so he was homesick and anxious to get out of this endless wilderness. With Indara fighting the witches over control of Kelnacca's mind, they could have had Sol ask her what was happening, Indara could have said something about the coven fighting her, and if she severed the link by force the witches would die, forcing Indara to make a choice (and obviously she chooses Kelnacca).

People would still complain, but small additions like those might have helped a bit.
While I understand the temptation for such additions, I think the episode perfectly demonstrated less is more. As others have already pointed out, all of the necessary information is right there in plain sight. We don't need it spelt out to us.

That's what's so great about discussions (not just on message boards but in general) because it helps us consider what we might have missed or simply better understand certain things.
 
While I understand the temptation for such additions, I think the episode perfectly demonstrated less is more. As others have already pointed out, all of the necessary information is right there in plain sight. We don't need it spelt out to us.
Theoretically.

People sometimes want it spelled it out for them.
 
That is a fascinating read that brings up historical parallels that I had never even considered and underscores a thought that I had recently.

Recently there was a piece in Forbes and the first sentence of it was, "Remember when the Jedi used to be cool?", and my immediate first thought was, "No, The Jedi have never been cool."

If I may borrow from Baylan Skol, I remember when the idea of the Jedi was cool. Back when all we had was the original trilogy and the Jedi were an almost forgotten mythical order of knights and protectors that was very romanticized. But the prequels immediately put the lie to that presenting the reality of the fact. Showing a blind and arrogant Jedi council who had such a narrow focus on Jedi dogma and their own infallibility that they lost sight of what was important-- The needs of the people and the will of the Force. A cult by any other name. In some ways as bad as the Sith themselves.
 
But the prequels immediately put the lie to that presenting the reality of the fact. Showing a blind and arrogant Jedi council who had such a narrow focus on Jedi dogma and their own infallibility that they lost sight of what was important-
This is one thing that people often forget. The most lionized viewpoint of the Jedi is simply Obi-Wan's recollection of it. In the Prequels, well, that was completely undone. The Jedi are shown to be arrogant, limited and closed off in terms of their viewpoints. Obi-Wan, again, claims Anakin's abilities have made him arrogant in ATOC only for Yoda to note the same flaw in Obi-Wan. They are shown to duped by Sidious' machinations, to the point that despite protesting not being soldiers they jump right in as soldiers and general.
 
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