Spoilers Wish World grade and discussion thread

[jaime]

Certainly an entertaining watch, with fun performances, fantastic visuals, & that classic RTD build, & the Omega reveal did get a reaction out of me - score one for Bluesky's muting functionality for helping me stay unspoiled (I will never understand the need to know what's coming; surprise is a huge part of the fun, for me) - but I have to agree it's hard to rate the ep given it was 95% setup, & at core something we've seen so many times now. Ultimate reset button incoming, quite likely!

And yes, I too have concerns about just how much remains to be resolved in a single episode. Makes me wonder if everything will be, if maybe some things will be left for any future series/specials.

Side note: the book Conrad was reading from looked very much like the original Harry Potter covers. Subtle, RTD.

Oh, and I'm 48, and my first Who encounter was not a positive one, as I likely have mentioned before. I believe I have Colin Baker's first series to thank for that. Obviously, my opinion has since shifted.

We had the A Team on the other side in those days, then it was scheduled on weekdays when kids would be out at after-school events and up against Corrie. It’s a wonder any of us saw seasons at all by the end xD (I really count my regular viewing — rather than reading World Anuuals and Target, as starting with season 25 when we could finally tape one channel and watch another in my house lol.)

 

[Santa Kang]

Since I sort of started this So, here's mine. 66 and first encountered Who in the form of Peter Cushing. Shortly followed by Tom Baker. Both on TV.

 

[Steve Roby]

62 here, and Canadian. I think I might possibly have seen one of the Cushing movies in the mid-'70s at the base rec centre theatre (I know I saw some Godzilla and Planet of the Apes movies there as Saturday matinees, and maybe Forbidden Planet). I read about the show in a few places in the late '70s but as far as I could tell we didn't get any channels that showed it. First actual TV episode I saw was half an hour of something while we crossed the country in 1980 but I don't even remember which Doctor was involved. (BroaDWcast website says TVO was showing Pertwee reruns then, and I remember caves, so maybe Monster of Peladon?). A few months later Marvel reprinted "The Iron Legion" in Marvel Premiere, and I read them. There were other random exposures over the next few years, but it really kicked off in 2001 with reading The Taking of Planet 5 and buying The Stones of Blood on VHS.

TL,DR: I'm old, but I didn't really know who the likes of the Rani, Sutekh, Omega, et al, were until the early '00s. I'd read a Lofficier episode guide well before then but didn't retain a lot.

 

[Mr Awe]

I can't disagree; often something feels missing or they're used "in name only".

Sacha Dhawan did much with his scripts, though for his Master's traits, which are refreshingly varied, infusing the hyperactivity of the Master circa series 3 was the weakest element -- but he had more going on besides that and the return of the TCE was terrific. But Capaldi's era's use of the Master, both Simm and Gomez, was IMHO the best... even if it should have been the Rani trying to use the Cybermen and those nasty experiments for her own benefit. If the Doctor is a Sigma personality type where he does things just for his own interests, the Rani would be comparable in that regard. (If you're into Alpha, beta, Sigma, Delta, et al and not more recent studies such as MBTI...)

After series 1 (2005), the Daleks didn't feel very threatening again... until Chibnall's era, where each return of them - cordoned off as a new year's event as an added bit of brilliance - got better each time, with "Eve of the Daleks" being a needed home run. Of Chibnall's Dalek stories, "Eve" is easily the one I'd recommend.



True. And if honoring the source material, returning characters can be quite good. There was just enough in "Arc of Infinity" and giving Omega a tragic persona instead of shouty stereotype to make up for how the story pretended "The Three Doctors" didn't take place (never mind hokey melodrama surrounding control of the Matrix), and every Rani-centric story since "The Mark of the Rani" didn't quite get the Rani right either, forgetting she's not the Master, relying far more on Kate O'Mara's panache. Archie Panjabi does some wonders with the material in the script, so I'm glad the casting was thoughtfully done.

I think that's a good way to put it, "in a name only." I'd love it if they actually did more with the characters they bring back than just working with the name.

As for Mel meeting the Rani again. That would be great! Except I had similar expectations when Sarah Jane met Davros again. Although, I think in general how they worked with SJS was fantastic, but that's more the exception than the rule.

And it seems like we'll be really rushed in the finale closing things for the Rani and now with whatever plan Omega has. And apparently Susan should be in the episode. I'm hoping for the best but . . . something about history repeating itself.

 

[Mr Awe]

43 here.

In fact, I would say mid-40s is the sweet spot, at least for Americans because that age range grew up watching Doctor Who on PBS. Granted, I didn't see either of the Omega serials until years later, but my early conversion to the show made it easier to go back and watch all of the serials, instead of being introduced to the show in my 20s.

I was thinking about this.

Before you wrote your post, I was thinking that my age was the sweet spot. I was 10 in 1980 and we were getting all the Tom Baker episodes on PBS here in the states. Then they started adding in the Pertwee. Then Davison. Then the rollout of the first two Doctors. It was all very exciting as the series was really taking off here. Then, over the wilderness years, I was too busy to really be a fan so that worked well for me and then new series started!

I was also thinking for someone born during the wilderness years, they could watch the entirety of the classic series and be in a good spot for the new series when it showed up. Or they could've gotten in to the new series and caught up on old. Both are pretty cool!

It all sweet spots, just in different ways! Sweet spots all the way down!

 

[Mr Awe]

Moffat knew to only bring stuff back if there was something interesting to be done with them (or was letting Chibnall have his go with the Silurians…) or sometimes rather than making up something new when something existing would work well. Saying that, there were rumblings that the Monk three parter was supposed to have them be Cybermen, which would have been quite interesting, all things considered. He made very good use of Mondasian style Cybermen, and used the Zygons for genuinely interesting purposes for example — even having the crazy idea of using an anniversary story to seed something else down the line, possibly by sheer chance.

I absolutely loved those Capaldi Cybermen stories for so many reasons, including the Mondas styled Cybermen.

 

[Mr Awe]

I will agree that that scene is a bit of a retread, as the 80s Dalek stories formed an "arc" of sorts that had their own civil war brewing thanks to Davros. And no Earth as a location was needed for every single story, only "Resurrection of the Daleks". An arc done largely well.

That said, "Eve of the Daleks" definitely felt more than the sum of its parts and any influences (and DW's history, past and present, are loaded with them and to varying degrees of "remix"*) and was very clever at times. I believe it was "Resolution" (the 2nd one, unless I got the first two titles' mixed up) where the Daleks state they intend to use as a Dalek breeding/incubation planet, which is HUGE as we finally get a reason for at least the Daleks reappearing on (modern day Earth) every single time, which is something that the previous two showrunners did not address. (Well, okay, having Earth be an anchor for a critter invasion by everything in the universe does get repetitive, but it sorta was by the middle of series 1 (2005) as well.)

So while there are valid criticisms of Chibnall's era (like any showrunner's perfect!), there were definite triumphs.

Besides, if nothing else, it gave Joe Vevers some great material to play with, like this:

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Even with the Classic era that created it all with aplomb:

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* Though ideally the resultant story is written so well that those influences don't scream "Hi there, you might remember me as being plot bits from 'Frankenstein'!" for example (e.g. "The Brain of Morbius"), though Frankenstein was made decades earlier and likely not as directly remembered. After all, Star Wars has a few nods to stuff made decades earlier mixed with original bits too. Question is ultimately if the sum of its parts is exceeded or feels original or not.

I'd agree with what you said earlier. Chibnall's Dalek story was the best of his run. Excellent story!

 

[Mr Awe]

Or maybe she has. And Omega is influencing all we see. Conrad's Incel-paradise overlayed with Omega's peculiarities.

It could well be. Well, either way, I love the visual design of the episode so it's all good.

 

[Mr Awe]

Except the Susan Twist thing didn’t reveal or really lead to anything, as she’s only ‘Susan Triad Technology or Sue Tech’ in the episode where the reveal came. It was daft. Mrs Flood being the Rani is… ok? But there’s no clues to it at all (same as all the non-clues and outright — well let’s be charitable and call it unreliable narration, in ‘season 1’) so it doesn’t feel interesting.
If you go really deep cut, and talk about things of magic at the edge of the universe, reasserting themselves now the Time Lords are No More, then sure… a fan who spent far to much time in the books etc might start assuming Gallifreyan Heroes (Rassilon, Omega) but to be honest it’s unlikely even then.

Basically, the clues are never clues, which is always the way RTD works anyway. His mystery boxes only ever just about work retroactively.

I just don't think RTD knows how to build up an interesting mystery. He has other talents, but that's not one of them.

And his mysteries work out retroactively only because that's what you're told at the end. It's not like there was a logical build up to it.

 

[Unionized Elf]

Since we're discussing first Doctor Who experiences, I'm really not sure mine. As I mentioned earlier, I have an uncle who is a big Doctor Who fan, and as a result I've always heard about Doctor Who for as long as I can remember. I have vague memories of seeing random episodes of the classic era on Canada's Space channel when I was a teenager and even on YTV when I was a child. Likewise, there were times when visiting my uncle when he would put one of his classic Who VHSs on for me to watch, I know I've seen Remembrance of the Daleks at some point before I became a committed DW viewer. Still, it wasn't until 2005 when the Eccleston season premiered that I began really paying attention to Doctor Who rather than it just being that show my uncle talks about. So I guess watching Rose in April 2005 (the Eccleston episodes aired in Canada two weeks later than they did in Britain) than my DW fanhood began.

 

[Mr Awe]

Mine was City of Death on PBS in 79 or 80. I had no idea what Doctor Who was. I thought it might be a science show and I needed to watch one for extra credit. I didn't get the extra credit but I did get a lifelong favorite show!

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I started watching Doctor Who way too old. At my late 20's, in fact. But, it did help me get over my granny's death, and I'm eternally grateful for that.

 

[EnderAKH]

I remember my VERY first exposure was late one night when I was a little kid I stumbled across the Horror of Fang Rock on PBS and didn't know what I had found. That was the last I watched for a couple of years when I stumbled across Robot, again on PBS, and I was hooked. This would have been around 1980, when I was 7, because I remember a big deal being made during the pledge drive about PBS trying to get the brand new Peter Davison episodes after they started airing.

 

[Mr Awe]

I remember my VERY first exposure was late one night when I was a little kid I stumbled across the Horror of Fang Rock on PBS and didn't know what I had found. That was the last I watched for a couple of years when I stumbled across Robot, again on PBS, and I was hooked. This would have been around 1980, when I was 7, because I remember a big deal being made during the pledge drive about PBS trying to get the brand new Peter Davison episodes after they started airing.

It seemed like it took forever to get the Davison episodes! I don't remember exactly how long it took but I'm pretty sure it was well over a year. I do remember JNT promising that he was trying to speed it up. But for the longest time it just wasn't possible for PBS stations to buy them. I don't know what the hold up was on the BBC side but they had willing buyers they weren't selling to for awhile.

 

[jaime]

I just don't think RTD knows how to build up an interesting mystery. He has other talents, but that's not one of them.

And his mysteries work out retroactively only because that's what you're told at the end. It's not like there was a logical build up to it.

Exactly this.

 

[JedGelt67]

I gave it a 9. Yeah it was setup, but it was interesting and cool setup. You can say that The Sound of Drums was setup for Last of the Timelords, but both were interesting and fun shows, and the only casualties was the President Elect and Saxon's marriage.

I think this worked out much better than S1 penultimate, mainly because Anita and Archie are just fantastic actresses.

Exactly this.

I think RTD and Moffat teamups have consistently given us some of the best episodes of NuWho.

 

[jaime]

I gave it a 9. Yeah it was setup, but it was interesting and cool setup. You can say that The Sound of Drums was setup for Last of the Timelords, but both were interesting and fun shows, and the only casualties was the President Elect and Saxon's marriage.

I think this worked out much better than S1 penultimate, mainly because Anita and Archie are just fantastic actresses.

I think RTD and Moffat teamups have consistently given us some of the best episodes of NuWho.

Moffat can definitely finish the bits RTD can’t.

 

[Santa Kang]

I'm not convinced that line of dialogue should be taken so literally.

Spoiler

The Doctor says "I have a daughter. She's real! Do you know what means?" What he doesn't say is "She's mine." Just that she is real.

Recall, Poppy isn't from present day Earth, but space in the future. How the heck is she even ON Earth to be repurposed as the Doctor's false kid?

I think the Rani screwed up. She used the vindicator web to power her experiment. But I think Desiderium's reality altering power is leaking back along the web, rather than staying localized to Earth. Which means if the Rani breaks reality looking for Omega, she's not just destroying Earth but the entire universe across all space and time. Oops.

Spoiler

Pulled out the air (and other places) speculation. Omega will be played by Peter Davidson and Susan's mother by Georgia Tennent. Like I said, pull out of....

 

[FredH]

Before you wrote your post, I was thinking that my age was the sweet spot. I was 10 in 1980 and we were getting all the Tom Baker episodes on PBS here in the states.

Tangential comment, but there’s something special about remembering when Doctor Who first started airing the Tom Baker episodes on WWOR-TV in 1980 — showing “The Sontaran Experiment” first, before “Robot” (or “The Ark in Space”? Either way, out of order), if I’m remembering correctly. With the same jeans commercials shown over and over again, for some reason. I like to say that you can tell someone watched it back then in the NYC area if they still remember “Hug me Seruchi, love me Seruchi / You got me Seruchi, you got me…”

 

[Commander Troi]

I stumbled onto Tom Baker episodes on PBS in my senior year of high school and liked it enough to continue watched when I moved to AZ later that year, which led to me joining a DW fan club in college.