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Augments and the thing about the Eugenics War. Why are they still a big no no?

Yes, and I have:
  • Khan, and 72 others who wanted to take over.
  • Darwin Station
  • Roga Danar
  • Dr. Keniculus.
We also have seen Leyton who was not an augment which didn't prevent him from wanting to take over. Once someone reaches a position as high as admiral or general, there always will be some danger that he will try to take over.

Earth's history has seen a plenty of dictators and tyrants without any augmentation. "Augments are bad because Khan was an augment and did bad things" is like "Homo sapiens are bad because Hitler was a Homo sapiens and did bad things".
 
Earth's history has seen a plenty of dictators and tyrants without any augmentation. "Augments are bad because Khan was an augment and did bad things" is like "Homo sapiens are bad because Hitler was a Homo sapiens and did bad things".
True but the history of augments is not exactly one of success after success after success.
 
but the history of augments is not exactly one of success after success after success
Well, 20th century, when most of that history took place, was not even close as post-scarcity as the TOS/TNG era.

If the Federation's society was as competitive as the 20th century, it would be surely dominated by Vulcans, Betazoids or someone else who have immense biological advantage over Humans. Since Humans still dominate it, it's possible to infer that Khan, had he been born in 23 or 24th century, would not necessarily try to become a dictator.

Banning someone from Starfleet just because he's too smart is like banning Worf from Starfleet because he's way stronger than any other officer. Worf is stronger, Nog's hearing is maybe as acute as Bashir and Jack's, Troi can read others' minds (and take advantage of this), Spock is better in math than any Human, A'Rex has three hands but that is not and obstacle for them.
 
Banning someone from Starfleet just because he's too smart is like banning Worf from Starfleet because he's way stronger than any other officer. Worf is stronger, Nog's hearing is maybe as acute as Bashir and Jack's, Troi can read others' minds (and take advantage of this), Spock is better in math than any Human, A'Rex has three hands but that is not and obstacle for them.
But, that's how they exist in nature. They are not made that way with the express purpose of augmenting the species.

Well, 20th century, when most of that history took place, was not even close as post-scarcity as the TOS/TNG era.
The 24th century had augmented people who ended up anti-social and requiring institutional level support.
 
The 24th century had augmented people who ended up anti-social and requiring institutional level support.
1) So do plenty of non-augments either now or presumably in the 24th century too?
2) But how can we know that they were the majority of augments?

The argument "all augments that we've seen except Bashir were bad", in fact, contains an inevitable "survivor bias" - we know that these people were augments only because they had defects which forced their parents to admit alterations.

Bashir's (who is the only known augment without defects) exposure as an augment was completely accidental - his parents confused him a medical hologram. Otherwise, no one would have known about him. In fact, it's quite possible that there are much more augments in the Starfleet than one - they just never have been exposed since they have no defects.
 
Yup. People are like, "Well you have Dr. Bashir and he's a good example."

Yes, and I have:
  • Khan, and 72 others who wanted to take over.
  • Darwin Station
  • Roga Danar
  • Dr. Keniculus.
Danar and the other Angosian war veterans are not really good examples of the dangers of genetic engineering. They were baseline Angosians who were "upgraded" through medical and psychological treatments. Plus,they're the victims of neglect by their government. Their government decided it was easier to lock them up than undo their wartime alterations and treat them like actual people.

But you're making my point, in a way. Speaking out of universe, Trek writers give many examples of genetic engineering going bad, but few examples of benefits it can convey, because of that tech-conservative bias that gets expressed in-universe as Federation attitudes towards new technology.
 
But you're making my point, in a way. Speaking out of universe, Trek writers give many examples of genetic engineering going bad, but few examples of benefits it can convey, because of that tech-conservative bias that gets expressed in-universe as Federation attitudes towards new technology.
Well, yes. Because I agree with your point. What is presented on screen, regardless of our views of it, is the evidence. We can sit there and say, "I'm there is a benefit if we can work past the issues." That's not the Star Trek way.
 
We also have seen Leyton who was not an augment which didn't prevent him from wanting to take over. Once someone reaches a position as high as admiral or general, there always will be some danger that he will try to take over.

Earth's history has seen a plenty of dictators and tyrants without any augmentation. "Augments are bad because Khan was an augment and did bad things" is like "Homo sapiens are bad because Hitler was a Homo sapiens and did bad things".
Or like saying Russians, Austrians, Germans and Italians are bad because of Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. Maybe Starfleet should ban people from those nations states from serving. They might end up as badadmirals.
 
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We cannot. We can only work with the examples given.
Because it suits the story the writers want to tell. However from a Trek universe perspective it is silly. The 22nd century humans hated the Vulcans for holding them back. Based on what was shown Vulcans held back humanity because they did not trust human violent nature in the wider galaxy, giving them 100 years to get their shit together.
Maybe humans should be banned from the Federation based on their history of violent dictators who were not even augmented.
 
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And this is the real issue, they were raised to believe they were superior and entitled to lead. You don't need to be genetically engineered to turn out an entitled monster if your parents raise you to believe you were born to rule. We see it in real life history and in every day politics to our detriment.
There's your problem, don't raise ANYBODY to think that, that's HORRIBLE and stupid. That entitled snobbish attitude with a superiority complex is what creates tyrants and sociopaths. We don't need that mentality in society.

I think the 1960's view of genetics so close to what happened in the 1930's prejudiced the writers to the concept. We have humans who are physically superior to the average human, we call them athletes. Last time I checked none of the smart athletes wanted to takeover the world
Also, most of our athletes are only great at 1x sport, rarely is it over multiple sports.
And most don't have a Napolean Complex.

Banning someone from Starfleet just because he's too smart is like banning Worf from Starfleet because he's way stronger than any other officer. Worf is stronger, Nog's hearing is maybe as acute as Bashir and Jack's, Troi can read others' minds (and take advantage of this), Spock is better in math than any Human, A'Rex has three hands but that is not and obstacle for them.

But they aren't like Superman from DC Comics, given too many powers or advantages that it becomes a legit possible danger if he ever went rogue / evil.

One or two advantages while other aspects are normal with some vulnerabilities is fine. But stacking too many genetic bonuses or powers together creates too much of a advantage.

e.g. Superman's Kryptonian Bonuses:
PRO(s):
- Flight
- Super Strength
- Super Speed
- Super Durability
- Enhanced Regeneration/Healing
- Heat Vision
- X-ray Vision
- Microscopic Vision
- Telescopic Vision
- Energy generation from Sunlight
- Super Hearing
- Super Breath
- Super Stamina

CON(s):
- Kryptonite
- Magic

It's kind of like the "Team Knight Rider" concept, you don't want one super vehicle, you want some weakness, with lots of strength & the requirement to work together to make you stronger as a group / society.

But nobody should have that many bonuses in one package like Superman.

Most good Japanese Anime/Manga/Light Novels/Shows have a few bonuses at best, and some weaknesses, but never that many powers stacked into one person.

That's just "Too much", it's better to have one or two powers, and develop deep & creative uses of one or two powers than to give too many powers to an individual.

You run into the Superman Writing issue where it's hard to create stories where the super powered being feels like they're in any real mortal danger.
 
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I have just come to an idea that have never thought of before.

The Female Changeling told Odo that some time ago Changelings were solids but evolved. Since natural evolution is impossible after achieving a certain tech level due to lack of natural selection, are the Changelings basically the super far-gone augments of a some solid species?

If they are, their anti-solid bias may be rooted in discrimination of augments among this species similar to discrimination in the Federation.

Also, it's possible to theorize that Metrons and Organians are also augments.
 
I think the federation benefits from the possibiltiy to use people of different species with different abilities and qualities. So for every duty they can find somebody with the needed abilities. But all natural. So I don't think there is really a need for augments.
 
I think the federation benefits from the possibiltiy to use people of different species with different abilities and qualities. So for every duty they can find somebody with the needed abilities. But all natural. So I don't think there is really a need for augments.
But given some people want to tinker, Augments like Julian Bashir is a good way of doing Genetic Modifications.

They didn't go "OverBoard" on his New Genetic Benefits.

Julian Bashir:
PRO(s):
+ Enhanced Intelligence
+ Upgraded Memory to Near Photographic Memory
+ Enhanced Hand Eye Coordination
+ Enhanced Hearing
+ Strength & Reflexes upgraded to Vulcan level (Vulcans are 3x the average Humans Strength)
+ Limited Control of his Vital Signs

Khan Noonien Singh + other Augments:
PRO(s):
+ 5x Average Human Strength
+ Enhanced Durability
+ Enhanced Immune Systems
+ Enhanced Senses
+ Heart Muscles that are 2x the strength of the average Human Heart
+ 50% better Lung Capacity than the average Human
+ Blood Platelets capable of regeneration from any Disease or Toxin
+ 2x Average Human Life Span
+ Enhanced resistance to Energy Weapons
+ 2x the Average Intelligence of a Normal Human

CON(s):
- Extra Belligerance
- Extra Arrogance
- Extra Ambitiousness
- Diminished Sense of Morality
 
I always chalked it up that the Eugenics Wars were so bad that Humanity would rather ban augmentation--and even the possible good that it could do--than take even the slightest risk of that ever happening again. There's no question that the ban was developed out of fear and paranoia, IMO, but I think it also says something about Humanity still having a long way to go in some areas.
 
I always chalked it up that the Eugenics Wars were so bad that Humanity would rather ban augmentation--and even the possible good that it could do--than take even the slightest risk of that ever happening again. There's no question that the ban was developed out of fear and paranoia, IMO, but I think it also says something about Humanity still having a long way to go in some areas.
Agreed and that's reflected in Deep Space Nine and other shows.
 
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