Augments and the thing about the Eugenics War. Why are they still a big no no?

[urrutiap]

In Star Trek, even in Discovery and Strange New Worlds and in Deep Space Nine, the writers and creators of the shows still treat augments and the whole so called big bad Eugenics War big no nos where they's still labeled as a bad thing in the Star Trek Universe.

last time I checked there were a few good augments that turned out alright such as Bashir and that one group of institutionalized patients that were somewhat friends to Bashir. Sure, Bashir's parents might have gone a little overboard to make Julian a little smarter so he could keep up with other students but is that really a "bad" thing to do?

and why should other aliens get treated unfairly where Earth Starfleet yada yada automatically assume that just because other aliens have done experiments on themselves that those aliens are labeled as augments like Khan?

 

[somebuddyX]

Well it started because RDM needed something that Bashir had been keeping a secret and they hit upon genetic engineering because it had been noticeably absent in Trek, aside from Khan, the Eugenic Wars, and "Unnatural Selection." It was a way to tie off two story ideas. Other writers run with it either because purely nostalgia because they're so smitten with TWOK and Khan or they see something in the idea of there being something illegal in the utopian Star Trek and thinking that has story potential. I don't know if it's stated that the Feds outlawed it everywhere or it's just something Earth did as it's nation state. The Eugenics Wars is apparently something that deeply scarred Earth and left such an impression that even 400 years later Earth doesn't want a bar of genetic engineering, save for correcting some birth defects. Even the best of these guys are Bashir's wacky augment buddies who almost ran to the Dominion with secret Starfleet knowledge when they thought they knew best. Who knows what happens when another Khan sneaks in to power? I also wonder if genetic engineering took a big hit when people realised how the Dominion made all their guys that were stomping the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Paul Weaver]

For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings. A superhuman whose ambition and thirst for power have been enhanced along with his intellect. The law against genetic engineering provides a firewall against such men

If engineering was allowed then parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced so that they could keep up - that's precisely what prompted the ban on DNA resequencing in the first place.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Because it's a Trek euphemism for ethnic cleansing.

 

[Citiprime]

I always felt Trek’s view of genetic engineering serves the same purpose as the AI ban in Dune. They’re both innovations that were tried by humanity but ended in disaster when their creations enslaved them.

Roddenberry didn’t want to depict a future where people became better people through their genetics being fiddled around with in a test tube. It’s a future where humanity has “grown” through hard choices and building a great society. And the genetic engineering ban forces humans to get “better” on their own.

Frank Herbert needed a reason for why the spice is important in Dune, and the AI ban is the story impetus for humans trying to figure out ways to become smarter in order to build the empire within the known universe.

 

[UssGlenn]

If engineering was allowed then parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced so that they could keep up - that's precisely what prompted the ban on DNA resequencing in the first place

this is the most salient reason. preventing an "arms race" with kids. In the real world, the same people who can afford to enhance their children are the same people who can influence politicians to keep it legal. So I suppose having the ban happen after a massive war is the only way it could realistically be banned.

 

[somebuddyX]

I feel like Roddenberry wanted to include a bit of genetic engineering, like I think that's how his "new humans" came about, but it sounds like the idea was while they were peak human abilities they sucked at being space explorers because lack of drive or something? In his notes for TNG he makes a big deal about the first officer being 100% made from regular sex and has no biological or technological modifications, so to me it feels like he thought that stuff might have been happening on the sidelines and was as normal as Geordi's modifications and Data being an android, just another form of life. If "Dr Bashir, I Presume" had gone differently, the genetic engineering ban might not have been retconned in.

 

[Citiprime]

If engineering was allowed then parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced so that they could keep up - that's precisely what prompted the ban on DNA resequencing in the first place.

Can I just say that it’s for this reason I really, really, really don’t like SNW’s “Ad Astra per Aspera,” since it doesn’t even acknowledge that argument while trying to damn the Federation by tying the genetic engineering ban to an allegory about discrimination.

It totally ignores the argument that this technology robs children of their agency to be who they are, and instead allows parents (and others) to assign identity to children. It’s the reason Dr. Bashir resents his parents. They didn’t accept him for who he was, and instead basically did the 24th century equivalent of conversion therapy. Except instead of “praying the gay away,” they used science to create the child they wanted. That’s about as antithetical to the idea of what minority groups have been fighting for in terms of acceptance and individual agency as I can imagine.

 

[UssGlenn]

Can I just say that it’s for this reason I really, really, really don’t like SNW’s “Ad Astra per Aspera,” since it doesn’t even acknowledge that argument while trying to damn the Federation by tying the genetic engineering ban to an allegory about discrimination.

It totally ignores the argument that this technology robs children of their agency to be who they are, and instead allows parents (and others) to assign identity to children. It’s the reason Dr. Bashir resents his parents. They didn’t accept him for who he was, and instead basically did the 24th century equivalent of conversion therapy. Except instead of “praying the gay away,” they used science to create the child they wanted. That’s about as antithetical to the idea of what minority groups have been fighting for in terms of acceptance and individual agency as I can imagine.

I get where you are coming from, but the fact that Illirians aren't human has to be taken into account. We aren't supposed to impose our moral judgements on other cultures. The Illirians have to come to that conclusion themselves.

 

[Oddish]

If they allow genetic engineering of humans, people who are engineered will quickly rise to the top of society due to their superior abilitied, and people who aren't engineered will fall behind. Inevitably, designer babies will become the norm and "baseline" humans will become second class citizens. Banning the practice creates a firewall against that, too.

 

[fireproof78]

last time I checked there were a few good augments

And how many didn't?

How much risk is it worth, given the world war that was spawned by the efforts of superior people?

Or TNG were the attempt to engineer better immune systems resulted in the deaths of an entire ship's compliment? For humans, the cost is in blood and is too high.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And how many didn't?

How much risk is it worth, given the world war that was spawned by the efforts of superior people?

Or TNG were the attempt to engineer better immune systems resulted in the deaths of an entire ship's compliment? For humans, the cost is in blood and is too high.

You can't genetically engineer "Superior Morality / Ethics / Wisdom / Behavior".

These are all taught to you as you grow up.

The main issue is that Khan & the Augments weren't raised properly and they turned into monsters.

Don't blame the Genetic Engineering, blame those who raised them.

Also, stop trying to increase "Aggression/Greed/Desire" in people's DNA, we have enough naturally as is, we don't need more of that.

Whatever we had of those features, it was enough naturally.

 

[fireproof78]

You can't genetically engineer "Superior Morality / Ethics / Wisdom / Behavior".

These are all taught to you as you grow up.

The main issue is that Khan & the Augments weren't raised properly and they turned into monsters.

Don't blame the Genetic Engineering, blame those who raised them.

Also, stop trying to increase "Aggression/Greed/Desire" in people's DNA, we have enough naturally as is, we don't need more of that.

Whatever we had of those features, it was enough naturally.

Humans are still competitive. I see it even children, and while I'll blame caregivers to a degree, there is some ambition and competitiveness that appears in humans across multiple stripes. Which is why I think that trying to engineer a better human is playing with fire.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Humans are still competitive. I see it even children, and while I'll blame caregivers to a degree, there is some ambition and competitiveness that appears in humans across multiple stripes. Which is why I think that trying to engineer a better human is playing with fire.

Competitiveness is fine to a degree, but there are boundaries that need to be taught to children, along with ethics & morality of how far they should go.

Trying to engineer extra "Agression" into them was a dumb idea when normal humanity has enough naturally.

This is why you need Genetic Diversity in your gene pool.

 

[fireproof78]

Competitiveness is fine to a degree, but there are boundaries that need to be taught to children, along with ethics & morality of how far they should go.

Trying to engineer extra "Agression" into them was a dumb idea when normal humanity has enough naturally.

This is why you need Genetic Diversity in your gene pool.

Again, I tend to agree, as well as how to teach ethics and morality, though I would debate on the most effective means of doing so as well. But, people tend to assume kids are like mini adults and learn by lecture. I imagine that since Khan, and other Augments, were meant as leaders they were lectured at.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Again, I tend to agree, as well as how to teach ethics and morality, though I would debate on the most effective means of doing so as well. But, people tend to assume kids are like mini adults and learn by lecture. I imagine that since Khan, and other Augments, were meant as leaders they were lectured at.

I'm more curious as to who were there teachers / Mother / Father figures since they probably didn't have normal parents.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm more curious as to who were there teachers / Mother / Father figures since they probably didn't have normal parents.

Based on SNW episode 'Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow' looks like they were raised in isolation in an office building by a group of mad scientists. No wonder they turned out they way they did.

 

[Nyotarules]

You can't genetically engineer "Superior Morality / Ethics / Wisdom / Behavior".

These are all taught to you as you grow up.

The main issue is that Khan & the Augments weren't raised properly and they turned into monsters.

Don't blame the Genetic Engineering, blame those who raised them.

Also, stop trying to increase "Aggression/Greed/Desire" in people's DNA, we have enough naturally as is, we don't need more of that.

Whatever we had of those features, it was enough naturally.

And this is the real issue, they were raised to believe they were superior and entitled to lead. You don't need to be genetically engineered to turn out an entitled monster if your parents raise you to believe you were born to rule. We see it in real life history and in every day politics to our detriment. I think the 1960's view of genetics so close to what happened in the 1930's prejudiced the writers to the concept. We have humans who are physically superior to the average human, we call them athletes. Last time I checked none of the smart athletes wanted to takeover the world

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Because the Federation is a conservative society when it comes to technology.

Innovations like long-distance subspace beaming or using the transporter to reverse aging or cure intractable diseases are used once, forgotten, and never pursued.

Non-biological intelligence research or construction are suppressed and driven to the fringes of the scientific community. For the one sentient android, it's a crisis requiring top-level intervention when he dares to reproduce. Even one of his closest friends and advocatea gets upset that he didn't ask prior permission to have a child.

Heck, even the idea that a holograph might be considered worthy of rights is an alien concept to most policymakers in the Federation. The Doctor is often compared to nothing more than a talking tricorder by many of his "friends." And that's not mentioning the period of time when they wouldn't even acknowledge him as worthy of talking to him, despite his status as ship CMO.

We see plenty of stories about genetic engineering gone awry, but nothing about how it might improve life...

The list goes on and on.

 

[fireproof78]

We see plenty of stories about genetic engineering gone awry, but nothing about how it might improve life...

Yup. People are like, "Well you have Dr. Bashir and he's a good example."

Yes, and I have:

• Khan, and 72 others who wanted to take over.
• Darwin Station
• Roga Danar
• Dr. Keniculus.