Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x10 - "Life, Itself"

[Farscape One]

How did Burnham know that Kovich was a code name ?

You know, that's a good point.

 

[StarMan]

How did Burnham know that Kovich was a code name ?

She's Michael Burnham - that's how.

 

[AlanC9]

To me, this is Rise of Skywalker all over again.

The entire season was a series of fetch quests, where it's like a video game with the characters having to solve a puzzle or face a boss battle with the "dreadnaught" to move on to the next area, all in search of a macguffin that's destroyed minutes after it's found.

The Ark of the Covenant at least serves a function in the climax of Raiders. What does the Progenitor tech ultimately serve to do in this finale?

Also, a key difference between Discovery and Raiders. In Raiders, Indiana Jones want to pursue understanding the Ark, learning, exploring and, you know, maybe applying science to what the Ark is. And the US government seems ignorant for putting it in a warehouse instead.

But, in Discovery, Burnham destroys one of the most important discoveries in all of existence. And it's not like it's in any danger of being misused by anyone else, since she's specifically told ONLY she can use it. I just feel that's almost antithetical to the ethos of Star Trek, where the acquisition of knowledge, pushing the limits of human perception, and boldly going where no one has gone before is the entire point.

That's the theme of "All Good Things," where Q is trying to see if Picard is able to expand his boundaries and grow, and in doing so it says something about humanity's ability to be more. Contrast that with this where the door is slammed on this technology, and instead of it being something we can learn and grow from, it's portrayed as something us lowly humans aren't worthy of.

Wait a second. The "Rise of Skywalker" bit is a cheap shot WRT the creative process. This DSC season wasn't nearly as compromised as that film was. No problem if you're just expressing a similar level of disappointment, though.

Also, the Federation outright refusing to use useful technologies has been a Trek thing forever. I'm not sure Burnham has the right to make that call, but she's right that she won't be second-guessed on it.

 

[SpockOfNine]

It was an ok end to the season; it did not quite hit as well as Season 4's ending but I still liked it. You can definitely tell they added the scenes with old Burnam after the show had been cancelled. Not entirely sure I liked that part. I wish we could have seen old versions of the core cast going out with Zora one last time but, thematically, this is the Michael Burnam show, so it makes sense she would get the final spotlight. I do like that they tied up the loose end from the Short Trek episode Calypso. I assumed we would not see it set in motion until the end of Academy (or its sequel show (if it got one)).

I like that they resolved the Kovitch mystery, but I also do not like that they resolved it. I think it could have been fun bait for forum discussions and Youtube videos for decades to come. Still, of all the possible possibilities, this was the nicest and simplest, I think. Still... I think I would have preferred Kovitch to be Kovitch rather than Daniels. Even a different time agent would have been fine. Still, resolving the mystery in this way was inoffensive and fine. Better than him being a surprise Q or a secret Progenitor.

I think the weakest parts of the season were the villains. Very undercooked and kind of uninteresting. I think Moll & Locke needed more depth than they were given, especially Moll.

 

[AlanC9]

I can't say that Burnham's choice to chuck "the tech" into a black hole works well thematically with Star Trek, which is fundamentally a hopeful, optimistic take on humanity. That said, it's 100% in line with how technology has been shown in past Star Trek series—even earlier in Discovery.

Wiz-bang technological advances, from the Genesis Device to the Spore Drive, are treated not as inevitable advances that someone among the thousands of sentient lifeforms across the galaxy will inevitably develop. They're treated as something that will be invented once, and only once, at a story-critical point. If we choose to chuck it into a black hole, we never need to worry about our enemies developing it or some advanced alien with a million-year start to have it. It's just something that exists once at a story-critical moment, and then it's gone forever. So yeah, Stamets is literally the only person in the entire multiverse to ever use the Spore Drive.

It's not a realistic way to world-build at all, but it's an integral part of the Star Trek setting, so I don't really mind it much.

Agreed.

And abandoning the Progenitors' tech doesn't seem all that bad as opposed to, say, never making Genesis Devices practical. Yeah, you can create new life, but the galaxy already has a practically infinite abundance of diverse life. What problem is this tech solving?

 

[Aragorn]

Anyone find it kind of funny how the replacement bridge crew that had been there all season wasn't important enough to bring back at the end?

 

[The_Baroness]

True, but they aren't the "Original" point for all Sentient/Sapient Life since the creation of the Universe, just for our side/section of the Milkyway Galaxy, one Galaxy out of many in this Universe.

They aren't the very original / first spark of life in our Universe, that's the point I'm trying to get at.

There's somebody else who created the Progenitors is what I'm getting at.

And they are, for a lack of a better term, "The Originators" of ALL Sentient / Sapient life.

Whomever that may be.

Koala

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Wait a second. The "Rise of Skywalker" bit is a cheap shot WRT the creative process. This DSC season wasn't nearly as compromised as that film was. No problem if you're just expressing a similar level of disappointment, though.

Also, the Federation outright refusing to use useful technologies has been a Trek thing forever. I'm not sure Burnham has the right to make that call, but she's right that she won't be second-guessed on it.

"Has been a Trek thing forever" really needs to stop being used as an excuse.

I mean that across the board and not just about this plot.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

She's Michael Burnham - that's how.

It just seemed to come out of nowhere. Like it was some new power the progenitors gave her.

 

[ToddCam]

How did Burnham know that Kovich was a code name ?

Because the guy has secret pocket dimension access and can override the prime directive as a matter of course, so it only makes sense that there's possibly some hidden stuff in his past. Also the fact he has no first name. I'm assuming she went and tried to look him up at some point, and his history probably read as a BS cover story.

 

[thribs]

Anyone find it kind of funny how the replacement bridge crew that had been there all season wasn't important enough to bring back at the end?

That’s just Discovery for you. If you’re not Michael then you’re not important

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Anyone find it kind of funny how the replacement bridge crew that had been there all season wasn't important enough to bring back at the end?

They weren't important enough though. The real "funny" thing is that the old crew kept getting moved on.

 

[Quantum21]

Wait a second. The "Rise of Skywalker" bit is a cheap shot WRT the creative process. This DSC season wasn't nearly as compromised as that film was. No problem if you're just expressing a similar level of disappointment, though.

Also, the Federation outright refusing to use useful technologies has been a Trek thing forever. I'm not sure Burnham has the right to make that call, but she's right that she won't be second-guessed on it.

Didn't you watch the season!?

The Progenitors literally gave Burnham the right. They even said so in the final episode.

The tests were devised by the scientists with the Progenitors aid because they realized that the power was too great, and they didn't want it. So they laid the path down for anyone else trying to do so. Moll didn't make it but Burnham did.

Burnham of course had the help of her crew and the Federation.

 

[NCC-73515]

The whole thing reminded me of A Final Unity

At the end, you had to choose to destroy the approaching Borg fleet, or the entire collective. The correct choice was neither. Leave without using the device's power.

Because the wedding and beach scene followed Book telling Moll he'll always be here for her, I thought Book told Burnham that Moll has a baby! Did Disco in its final scenes break another barrier and introduce a poly relationship? But no, it was tranceworm Molly. That nicely bookended (BOOKended!) the entire 32nd century part of the show.

The Daniels thing really bugs me.
Could he not just be Kovich who was a cool character. Does everything have to be a memberberry.
32nd century Disco was Treks one chance to not just be "hey look it's" all the time but no.

When a character is revealed to be someone who he certainly could be, it fits, and doesn't distract in any way from the story or anything else in an episode... is it not a bembermerry. This was more like Carl being the GoF. Why not? The theater audience applauded so much you couldn't hear the rest after "Enterprise".

Now, I know Kovich saying "Agent Daniels, USS Enterprise" is meant to imply Archer's Enterprise, and it's a mistake by the writers.

Small nitpick on Daneiovich... he didn't serve on "USS Enterprise". He was on "Enterprise".

He could've been on all of them. It does look like he was on the D and/or E as well

I never understand this argument. Does SNW not work because you know most of the characters are going to survive the show? Do historical dramas not work because you know the people in question have a fixed path already?
Compelling drama isn't about the endpoint, it's about the journey.

Yeah it's like Titanic and Apollo 13 are unwatchable. I knew Earth would be fine and still ENT S3 was full of suspense by the end.

Oh yes, and the throwaway aspect of Kovich being Daniels was momentarily surprising and interesting, but only prompted a shoulder shrug, since neither he nor Burnham's son will be seen again, so why?

Cause now we know. Can the final few scenes of anything not introduce new things so we know? I like that, it's like a little outlook for us to imagine what else happened with this new bit of info.

Speaking of ENT, Kovich being revealed to be Daniels... actually makes me want to go back and watch some episodes of ENT. Something I never thought I'd ever say. Specifically the Temporal Cold War episodes, or at least any episodes with Daniels in them, seeing them in this new context. Also something I never thought I'd say.

I'll watch all the Daniels episodes again, then this one, then Calypso

You left out my fave one!

The Gristle Gun from David Cronenberg's eXistenZ.

I was wondering if that's the fish skeleton from the promenade ceiling

 

[Quantum21]

Agreed.

And abandoning the Progenitors' tech doesn't seem all that bad as opposed to, say, never making Genesis Devices practical. Yeah, you can create new life, but the galaxy already has a practically infinite abundance of diverse life. What problem is this tech solving?

There are benefits to making it artificially of course, which was brought up in the episode.

Another profound moment related to that: Burnham reflects and said this technology while powerful, isn't needed for diversity or to keep us from being lonely, we have that now.

That says a lot with simple words.

IDIC, and raised a Vulcan she would know.

 

[Therin of Andor]

IMHO they should have just re-rendered the external Discovery shots from Calypso to have the detached nacelles. Presumably they're all still on a drive somewhere.

And erase everyone's memories as well? And recall our DVDs and Blu-Rays?

 

[Quantum21]

The final ranking for me. After 30 years, a new series finale at the top of the top list. Wow, never thought I'd say that.

1. Star Trek Discovery - Life Itself - 10 out of 10
2. Star Trek The Next Generation - All Good Things - 10 out of 10
3. Star Trek DS9 - What You Leave Behind - 9
4. Star Trek Voyager - Endgame - 9
5. Star Trek Picard - 8
6. Star Trek Enterprise - These are the Voyages - 6
7. Star Trek - Turnabout Intruder - 1

 

[JRob94]

I'm giving that episode Calypso/10! Sure they couldn't come up with any ideas on how to use the story as part of a season arc and it remains just as mysterious, but at least they set up a situation where the events can happen. Using the set up as an excuse to restore Discovery to its original appearance for the final shot gives it at least some reason to be in the episode, and sticking it after a huge time jump means they can tell Disco stories in movies for another 30 years or so before they run into it.

So I'm happy. Surprised and happy. Nice job Disco.

Thank goodness! I was starting to think I was the only one who liked how they tied in Calypso at the end

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

When a character is revealed to be someone who he certainly could be, it fits, and doesn't distract in any way from the story or anything else in an episode... is it not a bembermerry. This was more like Carl being the GoF. Why not? The theater audience applauded so much you couldn't hear the rest after "Enterprise".

I don't care what the theatre full of Discovery fans audience thought in the same way I don't care what the people who hate Discovery think.

I think all of this crap of constantly mining old shows and filling rooms with visors and baseballs has gone way beyond redundant at this stage. Things like the Starfleet museum should be a fun website extra not a plot point for an entire season. Same as Kovich being Daniels adds nothing other than clickbait or having the mcguffin being progenitor tech was pointless. Carl being the GoF was pointless too and even more obvious than John Harrison was.
Having it there for no purpose other than "hey it's that thing you remember" is the whole definition of a memberberry.

 

[Deks]

The entire "knowledge is too dangerous" plot device is just a really tired Garden of Eden/Pandora's Box trope that seeks comfort in ignorance and that I think writers use when they don't want to actually deal with the consequences and realities of the story. And, instead, decide to chuck the MacGuffin into a black hole because actually dealing with it in an intelligent way is too hard.

Pretty much likely the reason for why the 32nd century is not as advanced as it should be.
Disco writers apparently don't want to (or cannot) write stories in highly advanced settings - and it seems it was decided Trek species shouldn't fundamentally change or advance too much technologically (because if they were to base it remotely on real world exponential developments and returns, the UFP would have been ridiculously hyperadvanced by the 32nd century - probably on the level of 10-C species if not more so, only across the entire Milky Way Galaxy, along with nearby Dwarf Galaxies and Andromeda probably).

Looking at what they did in S3 was... disappointing to say the least.
S4 was an improvement and the show actually stuck well with 10-C first contact (and gave us a glimpse into what the UFP could have actually been on a (post) galactic scale in the 32nd century if the writers actually pushed the narrative into that direction).

The progenitor tech has joined the series of 'invented and forgotten' one off techs we've seen in Trek before.... so... yeah.
To be fair, progenitor tech is nothing really special. UFP already had so many different breakthroughs and events in early history that managed to defy death, give life, etc... and it was all just 'forgotten' or 'banned' (some small aspects of it were followed upon, but apparently, nothing that was 'fundamentally changing').

How did Burnham know that Kovich was a code name ?

If I recall correctly, before she said that to Kovich, she looked around his office and noticed a lot of antiques and old things... coupled that with the 'real' paper pad he was using before (which he emphasized), I think she deduced from all of that he was/is a temporal agent... or an agent of some kind.
Kovich seemed to have purview into things well above others... so it stands to reason he was working in the upper echelons of UFP and had unusually unrestricted access... plus the fact the Red Directive came from him... well, that kinda further pushes things into the direction he was someone quite important and operating mostly behind the scenes.