Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x10 - "Life, Itself"

[fireproof78]

I just mean tying their hands in terms of the stories they can tell. Can’t have us wondering whether Tilly or the Academy survives since it’s already been established that they do, at least for a few decades.

Yes, we all know stories kill off their heroes. TOS was famous for it.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah, I noticed that too. I think they should've just ended the episode and series after the wedding. Better all around. Leave the future wide open and really nothing special was accomplished in the epilogue. I think the whole Zora/Calypso connection came off very badly. I felt bad for Zora!

I'm torn, because while I think it would have been a better close to just end with Michael and Book talking about their love and kissing, the coda scenes (aside from the crap trying to link in Calypso) were great.

I really, really wish we had more scenes in Discovery directed in the slow-paced, quiet, deliberate manner of old Michael and Book, enjoying their semi-retirement. I didn't know what I was missing until I saw it.

And it was treacle as hell, but the bridge hug scene gave all the feels.

Though I still think it would have worked better as the last vision of a much older, dying Michael as she stroked out.

 

[Yistaan]

I never understand this argument. Does SNW not work because you know most of the characters are going to survive the show? Do historical dramas not work because you know the people in question have a fixed path already?

Compelling drama isn't about the endpoint, it's about the journey.

To be fair about SNW, the most recent episode's "suspense" about Christine Chapel's state after a Gorn attack had no suspense because we all know she'll survive. And M'Benga and Sam Kirk have to survive whatever the Gorn do to them next season. Heck, even M'Benga's angst about his fragile emotional state we know leads to at worst a demotion from CMO.

 

[eschaton]

To be fair about SNW, the most recent episode's "suspense" about Christine Chapel's state after a Gorn attack had no suspense because we all know she'll survive. And M'Benga and Sam Kirk have to survive whatever the Gorn do to them next season. Heck, even M'Benga's angst about his fragile emotional state we know leads to at worst a demotion from CMO.

We actually don't know if this is the same M'Benga as from TOS. There's a fan theory that he gets drummed out of Starfleet when it's discovered he murdered that Klingon in cold blood, and it's his brother who comes on the ship later.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm still waiting for this show in Star Trek that kills off everyone in the name of suspense. I'm sure most members here will accept it with open arms.

 

[Yistaan]

We actually don't know if this is the same M'Benga as from TOS. There's a fan theory that he gets drummed out of Starfleet when it's discovered he murdered that Klingon in cold blood, and it's his brother who comes on the ship later.

Well Babs has stated in interviews that he is approaching this as the same character that Booker Bradshaw played, and it would be a bit of a coincidence if 2 M'Benga relatives had basically the same medical background AND an internship on Vulcan

 

[Fateor]

I never understand this argument. Does SNW not work because you know most of the characters are going to survive the show? Do historical dramas not work because you know the people in question have a fixed path already?

Compelling drama isn't about the endpoint, it's about the journey.

SNW is open ended because of Time Travel, as we saw with the Season 1 finale.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

A great episode, but yeah, that tie to Calypso was a real lukewarm WTF moment. I doubt they'll ever address whichever Red Directive™ that meant they had to put Zora out to pasture like that. Maybe still tied to the Progenitor knowledge? But it took a lot of years to get there, so even that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Did Vance refer to Saru as "admiral" at the wedding?

 

[Yistaan]

SNW is open ended because of Time Travel, as we saw with the Season 1 finale.

I'd argue it's no longer even a proper prequel to TOS after "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow". Giving La'an a massive crush on Kirk that Kirk KNOWS ABOUT is a massive timeline change that presumably the original TOS Kirk (who was in a 1990s Eugenics Wars timeline) didn't have in his characterization. The timeline divergence will only get worse if they continue that plotline, because La'an's crush literally had its origins in a temporal incursion.

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm torn, because while I think it would have been a better close to just end with Michael and Book talking about their love and kissing, the coda scenes (aside from the crap trying to link in Calypso) were great.

I really, really wish we had more scenes in Discovery directed in the slow-paced, quiet, deliberate manner of old Michael and Book, enjoying their semi-retirement. I didn't know what I was missing until I saw it.

And it was treacle as hell, but the bridge hug scene gave all the feels.

Though I still think it would have worked better as the last vision of a much older, dying Michael as she stroked out.

I'm torn too. I guess overall the negatives in the epilogue outweigh the positive, so not filming it would've been a net improvement for me.

The bridge hug scene was a mixed bag for me. It was all memories and an ND fest. Obviously going for the cheapest filming possible. The background laughing and chatter didn't even match. It would've been so much better if it was a real reunion with actual dialog. In another sense, it was a pale imitation of the scenes at the wedding, where people caught up using actual words.

I did actually really enjoy Old Michael. Boy she did a fantastic job portraying her and the relationship with Book was nice.

Overall, I could've done without it. Or a different version of it. Maybe they're seeing Leto off and some of the old crew visit and we see what they're up to?

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm still waiting for this show in Star Trek that kills off everyone in the name of suspense. I'm sure most members here will accept it with open arms.

There is a sci fi series that essentially ends that way. That finale is considered a classic. But it's more fitting for the tone of Blake's 7 than Star Trek!

 

[fireproof78]

There is a sci fi series that essentially ends that way. That finale is considered a classic. But it's more fitting for the tone of Blake's 7 than Star Trek!

Yes, but the way people are chatting here you'd think Trek regularly killed off mains and now there's no more drama because we know main characters will survive.

Maybe Voyager would have been better of Tom confessed his love to Breanna snd the Doctor couldn't save him.

 

[evilchumlee]

]
After the Temporal Wars, time travel was absolutely thoroughly banned. Kovich secretly and personally does it anyway when he sees the need, and also had his lifetimes of time travel experience as Daniels (and probably other names).

I feel like it's fairly heavy handedly implied now that time travel is "banned" but... the Federation employs a (former?) Temporal Agent in it's absolute highest levels, who also just happens to have access to random, ancient, preserved paper memo pads? Who also, for some reason, has extensive knowledge on the Temporal Wars? And then combined with the fact there absolutely HAS to be some sort of time travel chickanery going on with Craft and un-refitting Discovery...

Yeah. Daniels/Kovich is still time travelling. The war isn't over. I hope to see more Kovich in SFA.

Off that topic for a moment, you know I had mostly negatives to say so here's a few positives...

I liked Old Burnham and Book. It's kind of nice to get to see what happens later on in their story, they do indeed live "happily ever after".

I'm happy they decided to make it so that no, L'ak is dead. He's not coming back. Doesn't work that way.

The extra layer to the Progenitors is neat. I do enjoy epic timescale sci-fi mysteries. I also couldn't help but think to tie in the idea of Pre-Progenitors with the PIC Synth Reaper Aliens... there have apparently been "cycles", and we know that those Reaper Aliens come around to kill of organic life every so often... perhaps the Pre-Progenitor tech was partially a Commander Sheppard Failsafe in case they did manage to wipe out everyone. Also curious about a potential Q connection...

Interesting move by not putting a bow on Discovery in the "present" time and jumping forward in time. We can be... treated to more Discovery if they so decide.

The costume design at the wedding was spectacular. Credit where credit is due.

 

[eschaton]

The bridge hug scene was a mixed bag for me. It was all memories and an ND fest. Obviously going for the cheapest filming possible. The background laughing and chatter didn't even match. It would've been so much better if it was a real reunion with actual dialog. In another sense, it was a pale imitation of the scenes at the wedding, where people caught up using actual words.

I interpreted the lack of sync (and no dialogue) being because it was meant to be reminiscence on the part of an elderly Michael. It was meant to do the same thing as those self-indulgent clips shown in Vince's club in What We Leave Behind. It wasn't supposed to tell a story - just remind us of better days. And they chose to film a new scene, not to just use clips, to honor the cast, and not just the characters.

Overall, I could've done without it. Or a different version of it. Maybe they're seeing Leto off and some of the old crew visit and we see what they're up to?

That would result in something much longer, and more expensive than the budget provided by Paramount.

Admittedly though, I think the coda would be better if it was released as a standalone Short Trek.

 

[evilchumlee]

Yes, but the way people are chatting here you'd think Trek regularly killed off mains and now there's no more drama because we know main characters will survive.

Maybe Voyager would have been better of Tom confessed his love to Breanna snd the Doctor couldn't save him.

I actually think Trek would absolutely benefit from characters not automatically being "safe". Trek has adopted many modern prestige TV tropes, but not that one.

EDIT -

Small nitpick on Daneiovich... he didn't serve on "USS Enterprise". He was on "Enterprise".

 

[firehawk12]

Zora: No Craft, forget your wife! Stay here on Discovery, I'll make it more pleasant.

(Zora materializes as a hot Orion woman and starts approaching Craft)

Craft: All right out with it! Our meeting was not a coincidence! Why are you here and what do you want with me?

Zora: I honestly don't know. I was ordered to wait 1,000 years to find you and the reasons weren't told to me because it's a classified Red Directive. Maybe you should tell me why you're so important, because I honestly have no idea.

Craft:

Don't think about it!

 

[Mr Awe]

I interpreted the lack of sync (and no dialogue) being because it was meant to be reminiscence on the part of an elderly Michael. It was meant to do the same thing as those self-indulgent clips shown in Vince's club in What We Leave Behind. It wasn't supposed to tell a story - just remind us of better days. And they chose to film a new scene, not to just use clips, to honor the cast, and not just the characters.

That would result in something much longer, and more expensive than the budget provided by Paramount.

Admittedly though, I think the coda would be better if it was released as a standalone Short Trek.

I get what it was supposed to do. It just didn't work for me. I don't think having a reunion to see Leto off would've added to the length if they cut out the Zora/Calypso stuff. More expensive though for sure. I'm not sure how much it honors the cast by paying the minimum possible but I understand the financial incentives for doing it that way.

 

[eschaton]

IMHO the important thing about MC deaths in fiction is not to have them. It's to ensure that if you place your characters in real peril, particularly due to their own mistakes, they have to deal with the consequences of said action. If you give characters "get out of jail free" cards, it will make for a less entertaining story.

I do think Discovery has been weirdly bloodless the last three seasons though. Literally the only characters who die are bad guys, who are sometimes treated with the casualness of video game mooks. This is notable, because characters did die in the first two seasons (Georgiou, Landry, Cornwell, etc.)

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm happy that (Michael Burnham x Cleveland Booker) got the happy ending they deserved.

Married with at least 1x Son who makes it to become a "StarFleet Captain".

 

[Mr Awe]

Yes, but the way people are chatting here you'd think Trek regularly killed off mains and now there's no more drama because we know main characters will survive.

Maybe Voyager would have been better of Tom confessed his love to Breanna snd the Doctor couldn't save him.

I sometimes wonder if a somewhat darker ST series might be a good thing to try? Darker in the sense that main characters might die. Space is dangerous. Etc. But probably not. Probably best left to something else.