Spoilers Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire grade and discussion thread

[Owain Taggart]

The movie was definitely chopped up. They went through all the trouble to wrangle in Bill Murray and then cut out Bill Murray parts.I have a felling Trevor had more to do originally but it got cut out to "I'm 18", and "Hey it's Slimer!"

Quite possibly. Like with him driving the car at the end, which seemed random. And btw, is it just me or did the Engineering guy give anyone else strong Egon vibes? I'm not sure if that's what the intent with him, but the hairstyle they gave him immediately hit me as 'Egon replacement', which is weird given you have Egon's entire family.

 

[evilchumlee]

And btw, is it just me or did the Engineering guy give anyone else strong Egon vibes? I'm not sure if that's what the intent with him, but the hairstyle they gave him immediately hit me as 'Egon replacement', which is weird given you have Egon's entire family.

Yes and no. I think Engineering Dude was there to fill the void of having someone who actually understands the technology. You have Egon's family... but you don't actually have an Egon. Phoebe is smart, but she just doesn't have anything approaching the education or experience to understand how a nuclear accelerator works...

In (hopefully) future entries, you probably won't have the old guys there to deal with the tech. None of the new characters are really direct archetypes of the old ones. Cassie is sort of the old Winston, being the "everyman" sort. Gary is kind of the Ray, Phoebe is kind of the Egon. I think Trevor was supposed to be the Venkman but... only Bill Murray can be Bill Murray.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

.Yeah, Trevor was kind of just there for most of the movie. Send him off to University or something for the next movie. Plus, honestly I'd forgotten about Podcast from the last movie, and had to remind myself what his role was in Afterlife. Lucky as well. Felt like a few too many roles from Afterlife had been carried over.

Trevor is as much a part of the movie as his sister and mom are; Callie is needed because she's the Earth momma who grounds them all; Gary's great as Phoebe's dad (who she even called 'Dad' at the end), Podcast is a lot like Ray, and Lucky's the other smart gal (and another person of color, who if she's gotten rid of will cause an outcry from black people [particularly black women who don't like to see black characters be sidelined.])

Who should be given the good-bye, or at least a brief cameo in another movie? Peter and Ray; Winston, being the guy who bankrolls Ghostbusters, can stay as the overall boss. The tech guy can stay as the one who helps keep the Ghostbusters' equipment functioning and be the resident scientist. It's time for the younger ones to take center stage.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Trevor is as much a part of the movie as his sister and mom are; Callie is needed because she's the Earth momma who grounds them all; Gary's great as Phoebe's dad (who she even called 'Dad' at the end), Podcast is a lot like Ray, and Lucky's the other smart gal 9and another person of color, who if she's gotten rid of will cause an outcry from black people (particularly black women who don't like to see black characters be sidelined.)

Yeah, I'm not debating they they weren't as much a part of it, but that rather their parts could have been maybe more efficiently managed. It actually reminds me of the Fantastic Beasts movies, where by the second movie they had so many characters they couldn't effectively develop them and it became this busy mess of plotlines and characters that were half-developed. Newt had been sidelined in his his own series at this point. Perhaps the next GB movie will fix this, because some of these characters need more development and screen time beyond bit roles.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Yeah, I'm not debating they they weren't as much a part of it, but that rather their parts could have been maybe more efficiently managed. It actually reminds me of the Fantastic Beasts movies, where by the second movie they had so many characters they couldn't effectively develop them and it became this busy mess of plotlines and characters that were half-developed. Newt had been sidelined in his his own series at this point. Perhaps the next GB movie will fix this, because some of these characters need more development and screen time beyond bit roles.

As I've said a few times before here (and in other cyber-aliases in other parts of the Internet), it's time for the roadshow theatrical release to come back that would allow for a longer cut of the movie to play; this would allow for a lot of a particular story to be told featuring all of the characters instead of some, and for things to flow a lot better in an event movie like this one (a roadshow theatrical cut would've been great for Dune One and Dune Two, as an example, and for this movie in particular.)

 

[evilchumlee]

Who should be given the good-bye, or at least a brief cameo in another movie? Peter and Ray; Winston, being the guy who bankrolls Ghostbusters, can stay as the overall boss. The tech guy can stay as the one who helps keep the Ghostbusters' equipment functioning and be the resident scientist. It's time for the younger ones to take center stage.

I would agree with that... for the next movie, but they kind of botched characters in this one.

I think we should keep the old guys around as long as they would be willing to do it, but definitely in future installments keep them as mostly cameos. That being said, there is significant cast bloat and I still feel like some of the new crew needs to get the axe. There are just too many characters for a movie. If this was a TV series, a ton of characters is fine, but it's not and there's really not room for everyone.

I think the next one needs to focus on the "core four" of Callie, Gary, Phoebe and Trevor. If we absolutely need to include Podcast and Lucky, stick them in for a quick background cameo. They're both just unnecessary. I think they made a huge mistake by not developing one of them into the tech person, because now we sort of need somebody else on the roster as well for that purpose (sort of. Although there are certainly ways to do the story where we don't actually need one.)

It's not impossible to do a movie with a large cast... but it becomes WAY more difficult when there is a clear main character. If these movies were always presented as a true ensemble piece, it works. But they're not, Phoebe is the center of the story, and that demands much more time be devoted to her. That's totally fine, but you can't really do a main character along with a slew of of other characters .

 

[Owain Taggart]

As I've said a few times before here (and in other cyber-aliases in other parts of the Internet), it's time for the roadshow theatrical release to come back that would allow for a longer cut of the movie to play; this would allow for a lot of a particular story to be told featuring all of the characters instead of some, and for things to flow a lot better in an event movie like this one (a roadshow theatrical cut would've been great for Dune One and Dune Two, as an example, and for this movie in particular.)

To be honest, I'm not sure this is something that would be fixed with a longer movie. It's more down to the writing of the characters themselves and how efficiently they manage them in the runtime they have. Most of the new characters were simple archetypes without much depth. Modern movies are bloated enough as they are without adding to their runtime as it is. Asking people to sit through 3 and a half hour movies, and without intermissions, is just too much.

 

[Tuskin38]

I just watched it. It was better than the last one, and I liked the last one.

 

[evilchumlee]

Most of the new characters were simple archetypes without much depth. Modern movies are bloated enough as they are without adding to their runtime as it is. Asking people to sit through 3 and a half hour movies, and without intermissions, is just too much.

I think there could be something with studios producing two versions, a theatrical cut and an extended cut intended for streaming. Cut the theatrical release to two hours and hit all the major points. Use the extra filming to give an extended 3-4 hour cut for home viewing that fleshes out details and what not.

On a side note, they've finally but the whole Phoebe/Melody romance thing to rest. They are friends.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I think there could be something with studios producing two versions, a theatrical cut and an extended cut intended for streaming. Cut the theatrical release to two hours and hit all the major points. Use the extra filming to give an extended 3-4 hour cut for home viewing that fleshes out details and what not.

Perhaps. You might be on to something. But I think it also goes back to needing good writing for the characters. The way the characters have been created, they feel like they're in search of a problem, rather than filling a niche. Make them interesting and combine characters if you have to so that you have less characters to focus on. Movies these days feel so busy.

My fav new character in this one was Nadeem, who ends up feeling like a Louis Tully that could end up joining them in the next movie.

 

[evilchumlee]

Perhaps. You might be on to something. But I think it also goes back to needing good writing for the characters. The way the characters have been created, they feel like they're in search of a problem, rather than filling a niche. Make them interesting and combine characters if you have to so that you have less characters to focus on. Movies these days feel so busy.

I don't disagree. Alot of movies have this issue of having a bit too much going on and too many characters. I partially blame the blurring of TV and Movies, something I think has led to the detriment of both to an extent.

TV shows now all need to be serialized, motion picture-quality bombastic presentations, which kills more niche shows. Movies are expected to do what TV shows do... but rather than 10-15 hours, they get 2. Maybe 3.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Yeah, you make a good point. I think having this many characters would have possibly worked better in a TV show, but then, I'm not entirely sure a live-action TV Ghostbusters would really work. I think it lends itself better to movies. And in certain cases, movies will get split-off into a TV series, such as the Blackberry movie, but that's rare enough.

But back to the topic of characters, the first time I noticed a situation similar to this movie was with the 2nd Fantastic Beasts movie, like I mentioned earlier. I think sometimes movies should slow down and maybe go back to the basics. Having too many characters is akin to having too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

[Phily B]

I turned it off half way through and forgot I even saw it till I saw this topic.

 

[evilchumlee]

Yeah, you make a good point. I think having this many characters would have possibly worked better in a TV show, but then, I'm not entirely sure a live-action TV Ghostbusters would really work. I think it lends itself better to movies. And in certain cases, movies will get split-off into a TV series, such as the Blackberry movie, but that's rare enough.

I think a GB TV show could work. Actually I think it's built really well for it, but something a bit more like an episodic show. The TV show would be about them... busting ghosts. Not just one Big Bad, all the stuff in-between.

But back to the topic of characters, the first time I noticed a situation similar to this movie was with the 2nd Fantastic Beasts movie, like I mentioned earlier. I think sometimes movies should slow down and maybe go back to the basics. Having too many characters is akin to having too many cooks in the kitchen.

100%

I've gone over it a bit but let's expand on it.

I think a non-negotiable for this movie is you have the three original guys. They stay... but can be modified a bit in what they actually do.

The four Spengler's need to be there.

Melody is needed for plot reasons. I think we can do the movie with Nadeem, but let's just say for the sake of it we keep him. And we'll keep Peck too because that's fun.

Just about literally anyone else? Not necessary. Drop Podcast. Drop Lucky. Drop Science Dude. Drop Patton Oswald.

Fold Podcast and Lucky into Trevor. Actually give him something to do.

Fold Science Dude into Phoebe.

Callie and Gary stay the same.

Winston stays the same. Ray stays mostly the same, except just have him do the exposition dump on Big Bad. Venkman can pretty just be around making quips. That works for Venkman.

I'd vote for dropping Nadeem too. He's not bad, but he does take up alot of time. Edit the end a bit to make Melody's matchbook be important for something else. It doesn't have to be as spectacular, like... idk... maybe make kind of a joke earlier that the slime thrower slime is flammable. In the final battle, instead of Nadeem throwing a fireball at him, have one of them shoot the slime at Big Bad and have him be like "WTF was that?", and then Phoebe lights him up (maybe even Melody doing it directly).

 

[Owain Taggart]

I think a GB TV show could work. Actually I think it's built really well for it, but something a bit more like an episodic show. The TV show would be about them... busting ghosts. Not just one Big Bad, all the stuff in-between.

Benefit of that is that if they have to have a large cast, they could have different episodes alternate on showcasing different characters and their strengths. But, I think they still need to cut down on the amount of characters in general. And you've made a good point about the lines being blurred.

I think part of the reason why we get so many characters in movies these days is that some are created to fill certain niches, but you can't have it all, and movies that end up with too many characters end up with characters that are not being done justice beyond tropes and caricatures due to not enough time to spend on them. Do them well if you're going to do them, even if it means combining or cutting some.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I thought it was very enjoyable. Much better than Afterlife.

 

[evilchumlee]

Benefit of that is that if they have to have a large cast, they could have different episodes alternate on showcasing different characters and their strengths. But, I think they still need to cut down on the amount of characters in general. And you've made a good point about the lines being blurred..

Longer formats allow for more characters. Look at things like Game of Thrones or Walking Dead... they have tons of characters and they work.

I honestly think peak TV structure for having alot of characters is quite literally the Trek TNG model. Episodic with A, B, and sometimes C plots that can utilize different characters within an episode. You don't need to utilize every single character in every single episode, but you can give them all time to shine.

Let's say we expanded Frozen Empire into a modern, 10-episode TV show...

Episode 1 is split between the 1910 Firehouse and the Spenglers doing some initial Ghostbusting to set the tone.

Episode 2 can focus on the fallout from the Ep 1 ghost hunt with Phoebe getting shelved from the team due to Peck and spending some time on her soul searching and what not.

Episode 3 could introduce Melody and give her and Phoebe some more time.

Episode 4 introduces Big Bad, and we start the see the old guys a bit, as well as introducing Nadeem.

Episode 5 can focus a bit more on Trevor's side story dealing with Slimer, while advancing the Phoebe/Melody story.

Episode 6 can have the Ray/Podcast stuff, and the Phoebe/Podcast stuff and finding out more about Melody's backstory.

Episode 7 Granaka starts to really ramp things up, the Melody/Phoebe betrayal happens, Nadeem begins training.

Episode 8 focused on Peck shutting down the Ghostbusters and we get to go more in-depth on the Engineering Division and gearing up for the final battle

Episode 9 starts the battle, expanded to include more ghosts and all that.

Episode 10 is essentially just the last half hour of the movie, but we get to go more in depth with it.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I honestly think peak TV structure for having alot of characters is quite literally the Trek TNG model. Episodic with A, B, and sometimes C plots that can utilize different characters within an episode. You don't need to utilize every single character in every single episode, but you can give them all time to shine.

Yes, absolutely! Actually, that's a bit of a peeve of mine with current TV shows that trend with the cinematic style. They keep having to move the plot forward, not leaving enough time to explore the characters. I swear, I felt like I knew Discovery's characters less by season 3 than I did by TNG's 3rd season. I kind of wish things would go back to episodic shows with continuing season-long story arcs.

Btw, I like your episode proposal, but I would actually move the big bad up earlier. Introduce him in the first episode as part of a teaser, then maybe shift to the 1910 firehouse. Loved that bit in the movie, and I actually kind of wish we would have spent more time on it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Btw, I like your episode proposal, but I would actually move the big bad up earlier. Introduce him in the first episode as part of a teaser, then maybe shift to the 1910 firehouse. Loved that bit in the movie, and I actually kind of wish we would have spent more time on it.

That works too. That was like, an on-the-fly 5 minute synopsis. Could definitely stand a pass through the writers room.

I actually thought the movie as a whole would worked better if the New York freeze happened earlier.

 

[Christopher]

Just saw this on Netflix. I thought it was a lot of fun, and a satisfying continuation. Phoebe is my favorite character, and I love the idea of the granddaughter of the founding Ghostbuster having a Romeo-and-Juliet thing with a ghost (come on, that was definitely a teen romance).

I really love Winston's role too. The original movies treated Winston as a secondary character, basically the Token Black Guy who was less important than the other three, so it's very satisfying to see that he's now the most successful member of the group and the one in charge of keeping their work alive. Plus, of course, Ernie Hudson is great (and he somehow looks 20 years younger than the other two despite being 5-7 years older than they are).

What bugged me is that nobody realized that Winston's research lab was the perfect solution to the problem of Phoebe getting sidelined by mayoral order. She's a budding scientist, so they could've let her stay useful by assigning her to the lab full-time.

I agree with the above comments that some of the supporting characters seemed expendable, and I'd definitely count Venkman among them. He didn't really contribute anything except wisecracks.

One of my favorite details was the symbolism of melting down part of one of the fire poles, an iconic piece of their headquarters, to strengthen their equipment against the enemy.

I still have a mild bone to pick about the match, although I can make it more sense to me. It seems that Melody could never move on unless this exact series of events occurred. However, it might not have been the action that moved her on. I was talking elsewhere apparently not everyone got what I got from Melody... I thought it was heavily implied she burned down the diner.

Oh, Melody said outright that her matchbook burned her parents alive in an accident. It was self-evident that she caused the accident and that her guilt at their deaths was what kept her here. (I'm also not sure she had any connection to the diner. It seemed she was just there to lure Phoebe out, and maybe chose the diner because of its name.)

When she was able to move on, it wasn't so much that the match was used at the right time, it's that she was able to do something to help someone else and forgive herself for starting the fire.

Yes, exactly. It wasn't about the sequence of events, it was about her state of mind. As Phoebe said, only Melody could open her own way to the other side.