DS9 vs the purist in me

[kkt]

I agree that Troi could have been made better but she wasn't that bad. The same for the Betazoids.

And the Ferengi were great in DS9, just look at Quark! One of the best characters ever in Star Trek.
And don't forget Brunt!
As for TNG, Daimon Bok was a great antagonist.

I agree about Troi. She was a good character, though often not used very well. "The nervous guy with shifty eyes is being deceitful, Captain!" "You don't say."

DS9 took it as one of their missions to repair the Ferengi. Ferengi in TNG were cartoon villains, tricky and yet not smart enough to pull it off most of the time. Hard to believe they ever mastered space travel.

 

[Qonundrum]

I essentially see DS9 as a deconstruction of TNG tropes. Not a bad deconstruction though.

^^this

A deconstruction, when not a daring and direct self-examination of the universe of Trek's 24th century for sure.

The 'deconstruction' being that you cannot always win by playing according to your own principles. In DS9 they encounter an enemy they simply cannot beat by any conventional means, like Kirk and Picard could. Not by force, not by outsmarting them, not by reasoning with them, not by exploiting some conspicuous weak spot, and not by some clever tactical maneuver or conceit. They literally needed 'divine intervention' at some point to not be outright defeated.

Which also explains 90% of "Space 1999"'s plotting, LOL. (I still like the show and the intervention is arguably intentional as even a couple of episodes had characters asking.)

But that's what made The Domonion, and The Maquis, refreshing. No simple sleep mode subroutine. No simple game of chess. The various factions had simplistic attributes at times, but the sum of their parts still was more complex.

DS9 showing Sisko even having to think of a greater good by doing a questionable act was a huge idea to try. For both Dominion and Maquis running themes.

I don't see it as a 'betrayal' of Federation principles because they loathe themselves for doing it (at least Sisko does), even if there was no other way. They still want to do the right thing, but survival has to come first.

In DS9's own words 'it's easy to be a saint in paradise'.

In a way, I think it's even more true to the original TOS spirit, before the ('perfected humans of TNG'): 'We're killers but we're not going to kill today', except that DS9 shows a day where they very much had to kill, just to survive themselves.

DS9 definitely feels like an updated TOS. Wild frontier and new situations - lots of cool changes and improvements are apparent. The biggest difference is that they're stuck on a space station, which is limiting in terms of narration and season 3's inclusion of Defiant proved they had to get away more, and just having a ship from the other side come in and either kidnap the crew or offer discount vouchers for a magical mystery tour of the Gamma quadrant would get repetitive mighty quick.

VOY too would hark back to TOS, e.g. the theme of the Captain going to any length to save fellow crewmates. As had DS9.

Roddenberry might not have liked it though, though I can't really say.

Roddenberry was said to have approved DS9 early on, but he'd very probably not have been happy with every episode made. Especially in later seasons. Can't blame him with the "Starfleet must always look good" idea, mostly because it's too easy to show the rotten apple of the barrel for dramatic interest. After x number of episodes where, oops, there's another baddie, it begs the question of who's actually good. Not by design, but because the reaching out to the well of "make the bad admiral of the week" trope became way too overused. Even in TOS with the directors of asylums, Captain Tracey with the fountain of youth episode (really good acting, regardless of plotting issues anyone might have), etc... the trope was invariably there...

 

[Qonundrum]

I agree about Troi. She was a good character, though often not used very well. "The nervous guy with shifty eyes is being deceitful, Captain!" "You don't say."

DS9 took it as one of their missions to repair the Ferengi. Ferengi in TNG were cartoon villains, tricky and yet not smart enough to pull it off most of the time. Hard to believe they ever mastered space travel.

If aiming the series at younger viewers, would her dialogue - seen as older audiences as pedantic - be useful for younger ones?

Then again, other episodes where Troi is put into situations integral to the story - "Farpoint" uses her abilities unique to the crew and is why they win. "The Ensigns of Command" with her explaining how different species communicate also works on the similar level of two people asking about the teacup, saucer, and/or what's in it.

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Pretty awesome scene. It may have inspired "Darmok". I should return to it more often as in re-reading my posts, sometimes I do tend to be... vague...

 

[MikHutch]

I agree that Troi could have been made better but she wasn't that bad. The same for the Betazoids.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The betazoid design is too simplistic for me and Troi is annoying to watch. i i wish i felt otherwise

And the Ferengi were great in DS9, just look at Quark! One of the best characters ever in Star Trek.
And don't forget Brunt!
As for TNG, Daimon Bok was a great antagonist.

agreed

Indeed, yes. This whole idea that Starfleet is good and that's it really is frustrating to me. They get to look down on past humanity and judge from afar, but there is no demonstration of the goodness of the Federation beyond "Because..." To quote the ever quotable Heinlein: "Our system of government is preferred for a simple reason-it works."

I don't mind them mocking past humanity (beats the reverse: unearned nostalgia) but I agree the Federation isn't always well explained or described

Agreed, for sure. A distraction in many stories.

ya, empathy and telepathy could be really useful: imagine using that against shapeshifters or cloaking technology, or even, you know, being actually helpful beyond the obvious

 

[at Quark's]

While I understood the narrative reason for Deanna to be an empath (upping the tension) 'he's hiding something captain, but I don't know what', and not a full telepath, I never understood why Picard would go with her if there's a planet full of full telepaths to choose from ('I'm reading from his mind he's planning to meet with a Romulan liaison to deliver them a classified Federation database 71 hours from now Captain, on the following coordinates: <...> ' sounds a lot more useful to me). Or would using telepathy to read your opponent's thoughts be forbidden, but empathy is OK ?

 

[MikHutch]

While I understood the narrative reason for Deanna to be an empath (upping the tension) 'he's hiding something captain, but I don't know what', and not a full telepath, I never understood why Picard would go with her if there's a planet full of full telepaths to choose from ('I'm reading from his mind he's planning to meet with a Romulan liaison to deliver them a classified Federation database 71 hours Captain, on the following coordinates: ... ' sounds a lot more useful to me). Or would using telepathy to read your opponent's thoughts be forbidden, but empathy is OK ?

i feel telepathy is ok if you're looking for invisible enemies trying to destroy you

ofc a humanoid's telepathy may only reach so far (like within a ship but not across space)

 

[kkt]

If aiming the series at younger viewers, would her dialogue - seen as older audiences as pedantic - be useful for younger ones?

Then again, other episodes where Troi is put into situations integral to the story - "Farpoint" uses her abilities unique to the crew and is why they win. "The Ensigns of Command" with her explaining how different species communicate also works on the similar level of two people asking about the teacup, saucer, and/or what's in it.

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Pretty awesome scene. It may have inspired "Darmok". I should return to it more often as in re-reading my posts, sometimes I do tend to be... vague...

Nice scene Yes, translating languages is a very difficult problem in general. There are a few famous successes - the Rosetta Stone. But even there, with parallel texts, it took decades before fresh heiroglyphics could be read confidently.

There are also famous manuscripts that remain mysterious despite competent and determined efforts to translate them. The Voynich Manuscript got quite a bit of publicity from 1912 on, and been subject of a dozen serious attempts to decipher it, none convincing. And it was apparently written by European humans only a few centuries ago, not aliens.

I don't believe anything like the universal translator could ever be built.

 

[DonIago]

I'm likely reiterating what others have said, but if TOS and TNG established the principles of the 23rd and 24th centuries of Star Trek, then it was DS9 that held up a magnifying glass to those principles and asked how strong they really were and how well they could truly endure under stress.

It's easy to take a moral stance, but much harder to maintain that stance on a practical basis, especially under stress. I question the underlying foundation of anyone or anything that's willing to make declarations of principles but isn't willing to have those principles scrutinized or tested.

As an example, there are many people who believe that Twitter has taken an ethical or moral nosedive since Elon Musk took ownership...but what are those people doing about it? Are they leaving the platform, or are they still utilizing their accounts as though nothing has fundamentally changed? Why have they reacted (or arguably, failed to react) the way they have, and does that say something about them, and if so, what does it say?

DS9 asked the self-reflective questions that TOS and TNG were unwilling or unable to ask.

 

[Timewalker]

Troi wasn't a bad character. But she could have been better developed.
The Ferengi were OK in TNG but became much better in DS9.

Troi was annoying from her very first line, and she never stopped being annoying.

I agree about Troi. She was a good character, though often not used very well. "The nervous guy with shifty eyes is being deceitful, Captain!" "You don't say."

I've been having a very long PM conversation with a friend on another forum who just got into Star Trek last year, and it's very interesting, seeing some of it again through a fresh perspective. She has a lot of questions about the various series, characters, novels, etc. and has posted a couple of fanfics that take a fresh look at an underused character. But we're pretty much in agreement about Troi. Our nickname for her is "Counselor Obvious."

the bad admiral of the week" trope became way too overused

My aforementioned friend asked me recently if ALL the admirals in Star Trek are bad.

I had to stop and think if I could remember any good ones, or at least ones that aren't terrible. I guess... Admiral Nogura? Mind you, I don't think we ever actually saw him. And Kirk, of course.

It's been a long time since I've seen any of the shows (I no longer have the channel that Star Trek is on in Canada), so it's a bit foggy now.

 

[kkt]

Troi was annoying from her very first line, and she never stopped being annoying.


I've been having a very long PM conversation with a friend on another forum who just got into Star Trek last year, and it's very interesting, seeing some of it again through a fresh perspective. She has a lot of questions about the various series, characters, novels, etc. and has posted a couple of fanfics that take a fresh look at an underused character. But we're pretty much in agreement about Troi. Our nickname for her is "Counselor Obvious."


My aforementioned friend asked me recently if ALL the admirals in Star Trek are bad.

I had to stop and think if I could remember any good ones, or at least ones that aren't terrible. I guess... Admiral Nogura? Mind you, I don't think we ever actually saw him. And Kirk, of course.

It's been a long time since I've seen any of the shows (I no longer have the channel that Star Trek is on in Canada), so it's a bit foggy now.

Admiral Ross was good

Kirk wasn't okay, he went charging off against orders just because he thought it was the right thing to do do!

 

[DonIago]

Admiral Ross was good

Admiral Ross collaborated with Section 31 on at least one occasion...

 

[Citiprime]

Admiral Ross collaborated with Section 31 on at least one occasion...

What made Section 31 compelling in DS9 is that there are moments where Sloan has a point, and Bashir's idealism is well-placed and admirable, but in the end naive.

For example, DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" pivots around the very real-world politics idea of whether Section 31 and Admiral Ross are right to install a Federation asset into a position of power by framing an honest Romulan woman who has been a fair and decent partner cooperating with the Federation.

You can argue with their methods, but Ross is absolutely right in believing that a "patriot" is going to make a decision based on what's best for her people, and not necessarily what's best for the Federation or the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. With billions of people dying in the Dominion War, do you really want to take the chance that the Romulan Star Empire (i.e., a government that has never been trustworthy at any point in Trek canon) is not going to cut a favorable deal and turn on you if the opportunity presented itself?

 

[at Quark's]

What made Section 31 compelling in DS9 is that there are moments where Sloan has a point, and Bashir's idealism is well-placed and admirable, but in the end naive.

I absolutely think Sloan has a point when he says that in order to allow most people in the Federation to live cleanly, when you are surrounded by empires that play a dirty game (at least every now and then), you are probably going to need at least some people to do dirty work on behalf of the Federation side to defend its existence - even if that is a truth the Picards of the Federation would rather deny.

While I would agree with that argument, I don't think Sloan is honest there, he's just using it as a rationalization. Because it seemed S31 was going a lot further than just doing the bare minimum to safeguard the Federation. Seemed they were trying to gain some political influence as well (spying on the President?), and I can't count genocidal methods (morphogenetic virus) as self-defense either (as dire as the situation was).

 

[Oddish]

Admiral Ross collaborated with Section 31 on at least one occasion...

Like Sisko, he got dirty for a perceived greater good. Funny how the Romulans brought out the worst in people...

 

[Lynx]

Pretty awesome scene. It may have inspired "Darmok". I should return to it more often as in re-reading my posts, sometimes I do tend to be... vague...

Darmok is one of my favorite TNG episodes. I would have liked to see more of the Tamarians.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The betazoid design is too simplistic for me and Troi is annoying to watch. i i wish i felt otherwise

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Troi was annoying from her very first line, and she never stopped being annoying.


I've been having a very long PM conversation with a friend on another forum who just got into Star Trek last year, and it's very interesting, seeing some of it again through a fresh perspective. She has a lot of questions about the various series, characters, novels, etc. and has posted a couple of fanfics that take a fresh look at an underused character. But we're pretty much in agreement about Troi. Our nickname for her is "Counselor Obvious."


My aforementioned friend asked me recently if ALL the admirals in Star Trek are bad.

I had to stop and think if I could remember any good ones, or at least ones that aren't terrible. I guess... Admiral Nogura? Mind you, I don't think we ever actually saw him. And Kirk, of course.

It's been a long time since I've seen any of the shows (I no longer have the channel that Star Trek is on in Canada), so it's a bit foggy now.

Considering Troy, as I stated in my comment above, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Personally I didn't find Troi that annoying. There ar chararcters, especially in the later series made after VOY which I've found more annoying. However, Troi could have been written better.

What I did find most annoying with Troi was her taste for slimy people, like Devinion Ral and Ambassador Alkar.

Who is that "underused character you're mentioning?

As for my location in a backward European country, there is no TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY to find anywhere so I'm happy that my DVDs are functioning right now.

Admiral Ross was good

Kirk wasn't okay, he went charging off against orders just because he thought it was the right thing to do do!

I like Ross and agree with your statement.
But I disagree with your statement about Kirk. It's people like Kirk who wins the games and change history.

Admiral Ross collaborated with Section 31 on at least one occasion...

What made Section 31 compelling in DS9 is that there are moments where Sloan has a point, and Bashir's idealism is well-placed and admirable, but in the end naive.

For example, DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" pivots around the very real-world politics idea of whether Section 31 and Admiral Ross are right to install a Federation asset into a position of power by framing an honest Romulan woman who has been a fair and decent partner cooperating with the Federation.

You can argue with their methods, but Ross is absolutely right in believing that a "patriot" is going to make a decision based on what's best for her people, and not necessarily what's best for the Federation or the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. With billions of people dying in the Dominion War, do you really want to take the chance that the Romulan Star Empire (i.e., a government that has never been trustworthy at any point in Trek canon) is not going to cut a favorable deal and turn on you if the opportunity presented itself?

I agree on your statement about Sloan and Bashir here.
I really like Bashir but he comes out as rather naive from time to time.

As for me personally, if my country or homeworld was threatened by a genocidial enemy and our chance to win against them and survive would be to do what Ross, Sisko and Garak did, especially in the episode In The Pale Moonlight, then I wouldn't hesitate to do that.

Unethical, maybe. But if necessary so.........

Like Sisko, he got dirty for a perceived greater good. Funny how the Romulans brought out the worst in people...

The Romulans are a complicated people.
But I like them. They are exciting.

 

[Planet of the Daves]

The only reason Roddenberry would disapprove is it's so war heavy, Majel Barret Roddenberry frequently said so in interviews.

Also, welcome to the board!

Thank you, new friend!

 

[Planet of the Daves]

I essentially see DS9 as a deconstruction of TNG tropes. Not a bad deconstruction though.

The 'deconstruction' being that you cannot always win by playing according to your own principles. In DS9 they encounter an enemy they simply cannot beat by any conventional means, like Kirk and Picard could. Not by force, not by outsmarting them, not by reasoning with them, not by exploiting some conspicuous weak spot, and not by some clever tactical maneuver or conceit. They literally needed 'divine intervention' at some point to not be outright defeated.

I don't see it as a 'betrayal' of Federation principles because they loathe themselves for doing it (at least Sisko does), even if there was no other way. They still want to do the right thing, but survival has to come first.

In DS9's own words 'it's easy to be a saint in paradise'.

In a way, I think it's even more true to the original TOS spirit, before the ('perfected humans of TNG'): 'We're killers but we're not going to kill today', except that DS9 shows a day where they very much had to kill, just to survive themselves.

Roddenberry might not have liked it though, though I can't really say.

In a way, I think it's even more true to the original TOS spirit, before the ('perfected humans of TNG'): 'We're killers but we're not going to kill today', except that DS9 shows a day where they very much had to kill, just to survive themselves.

Thank you for your reply. That speech from "A Taste of Armageddon" is one of Kirk's best speeches.

 

[Planet of the Daves]

You're probably a lot more saner than most who do. I totally quit social media ages ago.

And yes, your feelings are valid.

DS9 is also my favourite of all the Trek series.

Thank you for your kind reply!

 

[Planet of the Daves]

Remember, one of Roddenberry's original ideas for the Ferengi was they were going to wear "enormous gold codpieces" as part of their costume.

So, yeeeeeah.

Is this for real?? Oh dear..

 

[fireproof78]

Unethical, maybe. But if necessary so.........

Who's ethics?

In a way, I think it's even more true to the original TOS spirit, before the ('perfected humans of TNG'): 'We're killers but we're not going to kill today', except that DS9 shows a day where they very much had to kill, just to survive themselves.

Thank you for your reply. That speech from "A Taste of Armageddon" is one of Kirk's best speeches.

Definitely one of the best.

Which is why Kirk's struggles as an admiral were so damn frustrating. He was a man of action and capable of so much more than the pettiness he lowered himself too as an admiral.

Is this for real?? Oh dear..

Unfortunately, yes.