Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x04 - "Face the Strange"

[fireproof78]

Speaking of which, I had NO IDEA Rhys was now the chief tactical officer until this episode. Which speaks volumes to how the "bridge crew" are portrayed.

As background. As they always have been.

And Rhys has been at tactical since Lorca.

Shaw had depth.

Shaw was an ass. That's not depth. People complain about a male character dying to prove a female character right but not one mention of Shaw.

Shaw was just to prove Seven right and be a dick to Picard and Riker.

 

[Quantum21]

Okay. Let's define "nitpick": From the Oxford English Dictionary -
look for and criticize small or insignificant faults or errors
Is the relationship between Book and Burnham small? No. The way it's handled is intrinsic to their character growth. And to have them break up off-screen, then get back together again with nary a cross word between them is absolutely more than a nit to pick. It's the same problem I (and MANY others) had with the Seven / Raffi relationship on PIC, and to a lesser extent the Gray / Adira relationship (Though I didn't complain as much because I was glad to see Gray gone).
It represents a problem some of these writers seem to have: They do not know how to write real relationships, with real problems that come up without either side being a "villain". SNW has handled it pretty well, with Pike / Batel, and also Spock / Chapel / T'Pring. But Picard and Discovery both really, REALLY struggle with writing dynamic, compelling relationships where everyone's not happy all the time. And that's not a nit.




Shaw had depth. Raynor? Well, we'll see, but so far it feels like the writers are purposely writing Raynor as an over-the-top douche to get the audience on board with his "growth". Raynor has good points to make, but the writers immediately undermine him by having him bite Rhys's head off for making an astute observation. Which was dumb. I can buy Raynor as a gruff, more militaristic captain in the vein of Jellico, but even Jellico wouldn't have sniped at Worf for DOING HIS JOB.
Speaking of which, I had NO IDEA Rhys was now the chief tactical officer until this episode. Which speaks volumes to how the "bridge crew" are portrayed.



Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I thought "Magic" was perhaps the best ep Disco has done, one that felt the most like classic Star Trek yet still modern in its telling. This episode, while very entertaining, doesn't really touch it.

Shaw was one-note. The attempt made was leave a video for Seven to soften him after the fact. I did not change he was one-note and an asshole. Rayner has been far superior. See the "Who is Captain Rayner" thread.

Since Magic we've had lots of Discovery that feels like Pure TNG, in a modern way. There were lots of episodes in season one that were better, much less since. But being like something classic isn't the end-all of what I'd define as great.

Relationships aren't that great in most star trek but Book and Burnham at least feels organic, and real from shared experience as opposed to some producers getting together to get Chakotay to hump Seven's leg, or Worf and Troi, or Neelix and the elf, or Bashir and Dax, or the godawful Odo and Kira thing. You get the picture. If there are maybe 3 or 4 good continuing romances in Trek Book and Burnham are one of them.

They actually left on good terms, and they agreed he needed to pay a debt to society. Would that wipe out a year living by the seat of their pants together, or saving the Federation, sharing in the grief of his planet, etc? Let's be real

 

[Cr0sis21]

As background. As they always have been.

And Rhys has been at tactical since Lorca.

No. Chief tactical at first on Disco was Landry. After that was Nhan. And then we never, ever saw Rhys even DO anything tactical, let alone be referred to that way. I get it, he's a "background character", but this is a complaint many reviews have brought up over multiple seasons. And like I said before, if a majority of your audience dislikes that these supposedly important parts of the crew are marginalized, the writers are doing something wrong.

Shaw was an ass. That's not depth. People complain about a male character dying to prove a female character right but not one mention of Shaw.

Shaw was just to prove Seven right and be a dick to Picard and Riker.

I haven't seen too many people read it that way. The only thing Seven was "right" about was her desire to be called Seven (Which I thought, from a character standpoint, was off anyway). If you don't like Shaw, that's fine. I think it comes down to a difference in taste. Those who prefer the Burnham captain type really, really hate Shaw. And now that we've seen more of Rayner, I think a big part of his role is to be the Shaw type that they can have Burnham put in his place. In pro wrestling parlance, Rayner is jobbing out to Burnham to make her look strong.

 

[Quantum21]

No. Chief tactical at first on Disco was Landry. After that was Nhan. And then we never, ever saw Rhys even DO anything tactical, let alone be referred to that way. I get it, he's a "background character", but this is a complaint many reviews have brought up over multiple seasons. And like I said before, if a majority of your audience dislikes that these supposedly important parts of the crew are marginalized, the writers are doing something wrong.



I haven't seen too many people read it that way. The only thing Seven was "right" about was her desire to be called Seven (Which I thought, from a character standpoint, was off anyway). If you don't like Shaw, that's fine. I think it comes down to a difference in taste. Those who prefer the Burnham captain type really, really hate Shaw. And now that we've seen more of Rayner, I think a big part of his role is to be the Shaw type that they can have Burnham put in his place. In pro wrestling parlance, Rayner is jobbing out to Burnham to make her look strong.

The bridge crew are awesome but they're NOT main characters.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Shaw was one-note. The attempt made was leave a video for Seven to soften him after the fact. I did not change he was one-note and an asshole. Rayner has been far superior.

I like Raynor, but I've yet to see anything that makes him superior. As for Shaw being one-note, see my reply above.

Since Magic we've had lots of Discovery that feels like Pure TNG, in a modern way. There were lots of episodes in season one that were better, much less since. But being like something classic isn't the end-all of what I'd define as great.

Never said it was the end-all. But it does contribute.

Relationships aren't that great in most star trek but Book and Burnham at least feels organic, and real from shared experience as opposed to some producers getting together to get Chakotay to hump Seven's leg, or Worf and Troi, or Neelix and the elf, or Bashir and Dax, or the godawful Odo and Kira thing. You get the picture. If there are maybe 3 or 4 good continuing romances in Trek Book and Burnham are one of them.

Worf and Troi worked better when you go back and look at how subtle their coming together was. It got rushed for the finale, but everything until then worked fine.
I do think Trek gets a bad rap for relationships sometimes. We remember the ones we dislike the most, but forget others:
Kirk/Carol, Picard/Crusher, Picard/Vash, Riker/Troi, Data/Yar, Sisko/Kassidy, Rom/Leeta, O'Brien/Keiko, Worf/Dax, Paris/Torres, Trip/T'Pol, etc.
But I never said I disliked Book and Burnham. On the contrary, I think they work well. But the way their relationship is written this season is awful.

They actually left on good terms, and they agreed he needed to pay a debt to society. Would that wipe out a year living by the seat of their pants together, or saving the Federation, sharing in the grief of his planet, etc? Let's be real

If they were going to break them up, they should not have had them part on good terms and then done it off-screen.

 

[fireproof78]

No. Chief tactical at first on Disco was Landry. After that was Nhan. And then we never, ever saw Rhys even DO anything tactical, let alone be referred to that way. I get it, he's a "background characte

That's security chief.

We see Rhys at tactical and operating weapons. So, no. We have seen him. And background character is all he is. The audience can comment all they want. Doesn't make him not a background character.

I haven't seen too many people read it that way. The only thing Seven was "right" about was her desire to be called Seven (Which I thought, from a character standpoint, was off anyway)

Indeed, yes. And Shaw died. It was completely off.

Those who prefer the Burnham captain type really, really hate Shaw. And

What an odd thing to say. This has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Cr0sis21]

The bridge crew are awesome but they're NOT main characters.

So, what makes them awesome?
Tell me something awesome about Rhys and Bryce.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just illustrating the problem with hyperbole. There's been nothing on-screen to indicate either of these characters are awesome. Owo and Detmer have more than Rhys and Bryce, but not a lot.
If you compare them to, for instance, Ensign Ro, Miles O'Brien, Guinan, and Barclay from TNG, the difference in characterization is evident.

 

[Cr0sis21]

That's security chief.

We see Rhys at tactical and operating weapons. So, no. We have seen him. And background character is all he is. The audience can comment all they want. Doesn't make him not a background character.


Indeed, yes. And Shaw died. It was completely off.


What an odd thing to say. This has nothing to do with the other.

I'm referring to character archetypes. People who are fans of the way Burnham is portrayed really, really don't seem to like characters more in the mold of Shaw.

 

[trekfan_1]

Also not really feeling the Bonnie and Cylde storyline. It's not horrible but rather " meh" for me.

This season overall has been like decent frozen pizza. Would prefer fresh pizza from an Italian pizzeria but I'm ok with frozen pizza considering Discovery has not been one of my favorite Treks

 

[Quantum21]

So, what makes them awesome?
Tell me something awesome about Rhys and Bryce.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just illustrating the problem with hyperbole. There's been nothing on-screen to indicate either of these characters are awesome. Owo and Detmer have more than Rhys and Bryce, but not a lot.
If you compare them to, for instance, Ensign Ro, Miles O'Brien, Guinan, and Barclay from TNG, the difference in characterization is evident.

I've explained where the confusion with these characters has happened multiple times here, most recently within the last 5 days. So I won't go into into it all again now. They weren't intended to be written as Barclay and Ro. Ro was a guest star who became recurring, same with Barclay. O'Brien was made a character with more than a few lines halfway through 176 episodes then became a main character. The bridge crew in Discovery fill out a world so it's more well realized, they have the budget for recurring speaking roles...TNG was very careful who they had to pay for speaking roles so background characters were interchangeable. So today the issue is more one of time.

You're also perhaps assigning import because of the positions they play on the ship, in the past some of these were main characters, like tactical or security, but they're not necessarily so here. The Chief Engineer wasn't specified in most of Discovery, but that also happened in season 1 TNG.

Those characters are awesome because we noticed them despite all this, and the writers noticed and throw them bones when they can so they're awesome too. They're likable, they're motivated, and when they do speak we pay attention. The fact Discovery has such good background characters to go with good secondary characters like Reno, Nahn, etc is great for the show. Although some of them don't live long...

 

[Nerys Myk]

I said before, if a majority of your audience dislikes that these supposedly important parts of the crew are marginalized, the writers are doing something wrong.

Is it a "majority"? A few people have complained. Repeatedly
"Important"? According to who? What makes them important? That they have jobs held by "stars" in previous shows?

No. Chief tactical at first on Disco was Landry. After that was Nhan. And then we never, ever saw Rhys even DO anything tactical, let alone be referred to that way.

Pretty sure he's been called the Tactical Officer since Season One and the station he stands at as "tactical".

If you compare them to, for instance, Ensign Ro, Miles O'Brien, Guinan, and Barclay from TNG, the difference in characterization is evident.

There's no comparison. They aren't occasional guest-stars like those characters were in TNG. They're Ensign Gates, not Ensign Ro.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I've explained where the confusion with these characters has happened multiple times here, most recently within the last 5 days. So I won't go into into it all again now. They weren't intended to be written as Barclay and Ro. Ro was a guest star who became recurring, same with Barclay. O'Brien was made a character with more than a few lines halfway through 176 episodes then became a main character. The bridge crew in Discovery fill out a world so it's more well realized, they have the budget for recurring speaking roles...TNG was very careful who they had to pay for speaking roles so background characters were interchangeable. So today the issue is more one of time.

The point I'm making here is, when the writers realized fans were gravitating towards those characters, they leaned into those characters. It would have been nice if Discovery would do the same. But, instead of leaning into the organic reaction from characters like Detmer and Owo, we got Gray and Adira.

You're also perhaps assigning import because of the positions they play on the ship, in the past some of these were main characters, like tactical or security, but they're not necessarily so here. The Chief Engineer wasn't specified in most of Discovery, but that also happened in season 1 TNG.

The main bridge crew of Lower Decks are not the main characters, but they still have WAY more depth in half the screen time than any of their counterparts on Discovery. It can be done. And if the fans are in favor of it, why not do so?

Those characters are awesome because we noticed them despite all this, and the writers noticed and throw them bones when they can so they're awesome too. They're likable, they're motivated, and when they do speak we pay attention. The fact Discovery has such good background characters to go with good secondary characters like Reno, Nahn, etc is great for the show. Although some of them don't live long...

Saying a character is awesome because we noticed them is a pretty low bar, honestly. Yes, I noticed the same guy who's been in the background for five seasons now. Amazing.
If Rhys was supposed to take Nhan's place, it would have been nice (and good writing) to actually see that. It's a glaring example of "show, don't tell".

 

[fireproof78]

I'm referring to character archetypes. People who are fans of the way Burnham is portrayed really, really don't seem to like characters more in the mold of Shaw.

But I Iike Rayner. So, broad stroke missed the mark here.

I don't like Shaw for reasons devoid of leadership style concerns.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Is it a "majority"? A few people have complained. Repeatedly
"Important"? According to who? What makes them important? That they have jobs held by "stars" in previous shows?

There is more of an audience than just what's on this board.

The fact that Burnham doesn’t have anything better or more personal to say to or about Airiam except “You died, sorry that happened,” underscores just how undeveloped she was as a character.

But Martin Green has risen to the challenge, for those still complaining we don’t know much about the bridge crew of Discovery, this isn’t a show about the Bridge Crew, and that’s okay

My own complaints have also included a lack of banter and decent character development

The complaints are out there, enough so that even the positive takes on it feel the need to refute that particular criticism.

 

[SJGardner]

The point I'm making here is, when the writers realized fans were gravitating towards those characters, they leaned into those characters. It would have been nice if Discovery would do the same. But, instead of leaning into the organic reaction from characters like Detmer and Owo, we got Gray and Adira.

The problem is, people weren't gravitating towards Detmer and Owo because they liked them, but because they hated Burnham so much that they would rather see literally anybody else in the spotlight. And nothing proves better that it was never actually about Detmer and Owo than when Nilsson came around, and people immediately started demanding that she be made into a focus character and named first officer permanently, specifically because she was a blank slate that they could imagine as "the one person who actually acts like a Starfleet officer on board". If she were given any focus that felt "too Discovery", they would've just migrated over to another unknown shell.

 

[Cr0sis21]

The problem is, people weren't gravitating towards Detmer and Owo because they liked them, but because they hated Burnham so much that they would rather see literally anybody else in the spotlight. And nothing proves better that it was never actually about Detmer and Owo than when Nilsson came around, and people immediately started demanding that she be made into a focus character and named first officer permanently, specifically because she was a blank slate that they could imagine as "the one person who actually acts like a Starfleet officer on board". If she were given any focus that felt "too Discovery", they would've just migrated over to another unknown shell.

"People" like who?
I'll be honest, I can't even remember Nilsson.
My interest in Owo and Detmer has always been character based. Detmer has a dramatically salient connection to Burnham that was never really touched on. Owo has a fascinating background first dug into by Pike that, like with Detmer, has never come up again.
Of course, that's par for the course. Reno is interesting? Let's sideline her as much as possible. Adira has a cool backstory as a joined Trill? Let's never, ever bring it up again.
It's maddening.

 

[Quantum21]

It's definitely not a majority.

Is it a "majority"? A few people have complained. Repeatedly
"Important"? According to who? What makes them important? That they have jobs held by "stars" in previous shows?
Pretty sure he's been called the Tactical Officer since Season One and the station he stands at as "tactical".
There's no comparison. They aren't occasional guest-stars like those characters were in TNG. They're Ensign Gates, not Ensign Ro.

 

[Quantum21]

The point I'm making here is, when the writers realized fans were gravitating towards those characters, they leaned into those characters. It would have been nice if Discovery would do the same. But, instead of leaning into the organic reaction from characters like Detmer and Owo, we got Gray and Adira.


The main bridge crew of Lower Decks are not the main characters, but they still have WAY more depth in half the screen time than any of their counterparts on Discovery. It can be done. And if the fans are in favor of it, why not do so?



Saying a character is awesome because we noticed them is a pretty low bar, honestly. Yes, I noticed the same guy who's been in the background for five seasons now. Amazing.
If Rhys was supposed to take Nhan's place, it would have been nice (and good writing) to actually see that. It's a glaring example of "show, don't tell".

I'm picturing the writers being baffled fans were latching on to these background characters in season one...who are they? Why are they so unique? They started writing in more lines by season 2, and we even got Linus that season. They are almost never a focus. I give them credit for giving Airiam or Owo stories because that was never the plan. It's a reaction derived thing. We liked them so much.

Lower Decks is a show about those people, they are lower decks personnel but they are main characters, there's a differece.

 

[Cr0sis21]

It's definitely not a majority.

While finding hard viewing data is difficult, what little I can find indicates that Discovery viewership has been dropping precipitously. With that in mind, the concept of what a "majority" is might change significantly. Of those who still watch the show regularly, I imagine I'm probably in the minority of fans who feel that way. But that isn't surprising. People stick with what they like, generally. And there's still enough about DSC that I like that I'll keep coming back.
But the audience IS dwindling, which indicates that for most people, at least some of my complaints are the majority opinion.

 

[Cr0sis21]

I'm picturing the writers being baffled fans were latching on to these background characters in season one...who are they? Why are they so unique? They started writing in more lines by season 2, and we even got Linus that season. They are almost never a focus. I give them credit for giving Airiam or Owo stories because that was never the plan. It's a reaction derived thing. We liked them so much.

Lower Decks is a show about those people, they are lower decks personnel but they are main characters, there's a differece.

If you, as a writer, are baffled by what makes a character you created unique, well... I really can't help you. But I get really annoyed by how it was handled because they had potentially strong characters to choose from, and instead of elevating them they created Adira and Gray.
DSC repeatedly dumped off their most intriguing characters (Lorca, Georgiou, Ash, Tilly, and now Saru) and rarely replaced them with characters that could fill those shoes. But they were right there all along.
Book is a good addition, but that's 1. The problem is, the characters that were dumped were often the ones that provoked some kind of conflict. So now everything feels very homogenized.
It's crazy. They can't even have acrimonious break-ups. I know, I know, it's "healthier" that way, but I don't watch these shows for that. As Stephen King put it, no one buys a newspaper with the headline "Man returns home from work safely yet again."
Raynor was an attempt to add that, but you didn't NEED Raynor. they already had multiple characters that could fit that same mold, and they wrote them off for a variety of reasons.