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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x03 - "Jinaal"

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Not only do they reference the Dominion War, but Jinal backs up what I've long thought about the 24th Century. They thought they were evolved but they really weren't. During the Dominion War, anyone could've used the Projenator technology that Burnham is looking for as a weapon, and it would've gained them an advantage. Burnham had to prove that Humanity was more evolved in the 32nd Century than it was in the war-torn 24th. To which Burnham says, "We are at peace." But she's not arrogant about it and is realistic about how things could change.
I feel like that entire argument is really forced in this episode, and something I just rolled my eyes at.

First of all, the 24th century Federation is shown repeatedly valuing peace with its neighbors even when it seems tactically unsound, creates divisions among Federation citizens, and means peace with people that have just murdered thousands of your citizens. Instead of arrogance, there's an argument to be made the Federation/Starfleet policy of the time was naive (i.e., Sisko's anger about "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" is based on approaching the situation realistically and comes after Admiral Nechayev insisting that "opening a dialogue" with angry Federation colonists that just blew up a Cardassian ship should be possible).

The entire prelude to the Dominion War, and part of the ability for the Dominion to take advantage of the Cardassians, is set up by the Federation pursuing a peace treaty with the Cardassians that the Cardassians are never shown really abiding by. And through their actions the Cardassians weaken themselves more and more by being beligerent to the point the Founders could use someone like Dukat to take power. Even as the Cardassians were caught smuggling weapons into the DMZ, the Federation does everything possible to preserve the peace treaty and stop the Maquis. Even at the worst points of the Dominion War, if the Female Founder had honestly offered a peace agreement, do people really believe the Federation would have slapped her hand away and chose more war? (e.g., During DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight." Senator Vreenak mentions the Federation had offered "peace feelers" to the Dominion.)

Secondly, let's be honest. Even at the technological level of the 23rd/24th century Federation, if they had decided to, the Federation could have glassed every single Cardassian/Dominon planet they came across with photon/quantum torpedoes. For that matter, so could have the Klingons and Romulans. Or openly used bio weapons (instead of Section 31 doing it secretly). Even if the Genesis Device didn't work to create stable planets, Starfleet still had access to a technology in the 23rd century that could have been used as a weapon of mass destruction, since it would destroy the biosphere of any planet it was used against. If we approach this from the idea that the Federation of the 23rd/24th century couldn't be trusted not to use this super-tech, why would they care if the new planets created out of it rapidly age and explode afterwards if your enemy and their homeworld are erased from existence?

Finally, I thought Jinaal's test made no sense based on its stated purpose. Let me put two people's lives in danger by me purposely planting the seed in their head to get their "phasers ready" so they can antagonize some innocent creature while I stand in judgment of how humane they are? The very test says more about Jinaal than it does Book, Burnham, or the Federation. I also feel like that if you put this episode and SNW's "A Quality of Mercy" next to each other, you get a strange contrast of values. Pike's actions would be in keeping with Jinaal's test, of putting the phasers down against someone different than yourself. But you also see how that blows up in Pike's face and is the wrong answer for that situation.
 
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I feel like that entire argument is really forced in this episode, and something I just rolled my eyes at.

First of all, the 24th century Federation is shown repeatedly valuing peace with its neighbors even when it seems tactically unsound, creates divisions among Federation citizens, and means peace with people that have just murdered thousands of your citizens. Instead of arrogance, there's an argument to be made the Federation/Starfleet policy of the time was naive (i.e., Sisko's anger about "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" is based on approaching the situation realistically and comes after Admiral Nechayev insisting that "opening a dialogue" with angry Federation colonists that just blew up a Cardassian ship should be possible).

The entire prelude to the Dominion War, and part of the ability for the Dominion to take advantage of the Cardassians, is set up by the Federation pursuing a peace treaty with the Cardassians that the Cardassians are never shown really abiding by. And through their actions the Cardassians weaken themselves more and more by being beligerent to the point the Founders could use someone like Dukat to take power. Even as the Cardassians were caught smuggling weapons into the DMZ, the Federation does everything possible to preserve the peace treaty and stop the Maquis. Even at the worst points of the Dominion War, if the Female Founder had honestly offered a peace agreement, do people really believe the Federation would have slapped her hand away and chose more war? (e.g., During DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight." Senator Vreenak mentions the Federation had offered "peace feelers" to the Dominion.)

Secondly, let's be honest. Even at the technological level of the 23rd/24th century Federation, if they had decided to, the Federation could of glassed every single Cardassian/Dominon planet they came across with photon/quantum torpedoes. For that matter, so could have the Klingons and Romulans. Or openly used bio weapons (instead of Section 31 doing it secretly). Even if the Genesis Device didn't work to create stable planets, Starfleet still had access to a technology in the 23rd century that could have been used as a weapon of mass destruction, since it would destroy the biosphere of any planet it was used against. If we approach this from the idea that the Federation of the 23rd/24th century couldn't be trusted not to use this super-tech, why would they care if the new planets created out of it rapidly age and explode afterwards if your enemy and their homeworld are erased from existence?

Finally, I thought Jinaal's test made no sense based on its stated purpose. Let me put two people's lives in danger by me purposely planting the seed in their head to get their "phasers ready" so they can antagonize some innocent creature while I stand in judgment of how humane they are? The very test says more about Jinaal than it does Book, Burnham, or the Federation.
While the Dominion was at fault for their violence and prejudices, and pursuing vengeance to the nth degree, the UFP can't be absolved for the Dominion War. They could have avoided it! They also can't be left off the hook for their actions, even if some were through Sec31. Clearly many didn't make the distinction.

The 24th century humanoids were idealists but that doesn't mean they were ideal.

Another point:

It doesn't matter what we or the crew in Discovery thinks, the Trill scientists saw the results of the Progenitor's tech and felt anyone who wanted it needed to prove themselves.

I feel the same way about guns today. Prove your worth or no handgun.

So to me this is sensible.
 
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Are we seeing Tzenkethi next week?!

If we do, it’s about frelling time! They were painted as such a huge threat to the Federation in “The Adversary” and the war between them and the Federation was maybe referenced once more, then nothing. It was disappointing we never learned more or saw them in action. I always thought they’d have been better going into alliance with the Dominion latterly than the Breen.
 
Eh, a step down from the first two episodes. Kind of a meh episode for me. I’ll go 7/10.

They really went in on giving Rayner that Liam Shaw energy. And I like that, it’s a good contrast to the super happy, touchy-feely closeness of the Disco crew.

I knew someone from the bridge crew was missing but I couldn’t put my finger on who. Nice to see it acknowledged that Nilsson took a new position on Voyager.

Finally a Jet Reno sighting.

not super impressed with the storyline down on Trill other than the performance of Cruz as Culber/Jinaal.

Did we really need Mol sneaking around to plant the bug on Adira. I kinda hate that trope of “we are ahead of the bad guys…oh no your not”
 
The Tilly vs Rayner conflict seemed too manufactured in order to create a Vulcan vs. Human thing for Discovery. That conflict over management styles doesn't often exist in today's world, especially in the US, since it is normalized for management and employees to get to know one another on a personal level.
 
So, for the Federation Round Table with Saru, Who were the species?

Hope we do see the Tzenkethi, thou wish they'd use the book apperance
 
Is anyone else getting Project Genesis vibes with the progenitor tech? The way Stamets described it made my wife and I think of Carol and Kirk describing Genesis. Not to imply there’s a connection, more of a “we did this already” thing.

Genesis is quite different I think, it makes planets that are "capable of sustaining whatever lifeforms we see fit to deposit on it", and therefore such lifeforms still need to come from somewhere else. It's just a fast way of terraforming, turning a class not-M into class M. But there is the resurrection effect on Spock and the evolution effect on the microbes that turned into worms... maybe a result of the unstable protomatter. Hey perhaps when Kirk's body is exposed he'll return as a kid as well :D

Yeah, Genesis can make plants, but not animals. If you introduce already living animals their evolution will be accelerated, but not directed, as it wasn't part of the genesis matrix.
 
The Tilly vs Rayner conflict seemed too manufactured in order to create a Vulcan vs. Human thing for Discovery. That conflict over management styles doesn't often exist in today's world, especially in the US, since it is normalized for management and employees to get to know one another on a personal level.
That isn't true at all. There is still plenty of conflict over management styles and the problems usually stem from managers leaning to far to one end of the spectrum. Managers who try too hard to be best friends with their subordinates can be just as problematic as managers who are too rigid and can only view their subordinates as objects designed to achieve KPI's.

Both Tilly and Rayner are right. caring about your subordinates is important, but so is maintaining a professional distance. Good leadership is finding the balance between the two, which is something that Rayner needs to learn.
 
That isn't true at all. There is still plenty of conflict over management styles and the problems usually stem from managers leaning to far to one end of the spectrum. Managers who try too hard to be best friends with their subordinates can be just as problematic as managers who are too rigid and can only view their subordinates as objects designed to achieve KPI's.

Both Tilly and Rayner are right. caring about your subordinates is important, but so is maintaining a professional distance. Good leadership is finding the balance between the two, which is something that Rayner needs to learn.
When I started in the full-time workforce, over 20 years ago, the "approachable" management style was popular and when I went back to get a degree in business, a few years ago, it was still emphasized. Maybe this is in response to the older workers still left who have another mindset. Personally, I don't care how much my boss wants to get to know me.
 
Want to get to know me much better on a personal level? Then make that commensurate with good treatment, more respect and higher pay. I know we're talking about the late 32nd century Federation here but the first two parts should still apply with me.
 
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When I started in the full-time workforce, over 20 years ago, the "approachable" management style was popular and when I went back to get a degree in business, a few years ago, it was still emphasized. Maybe this is in response to the older workers still left who have another mindset. Personally, I don't care how much my boss wants to get to know me.
It depends greatly on the field people are working in.
 
It depends greatly on the field people are working in.
In a military, a hundred crewmen can't be managed directly by an officer. While it's nice that such officer would "get to know " everybody, her/his most important relationships will be with the middle ranks--the chief petty officers and ensigns. At Rayner's level, being a principal officer of the ship, working through the NCOs and lower officers would be critical to making the crew a manageable entity that works as one in a crisis.
 
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