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Star Trek Canon Problems

I think part of the problem is that it can be hard to communicate that someone is transgender non-verbally. Racial minorities don’t really have that problem, as features and skin color can communicate who they are to the audience, actions like two same sex individuals holding hands can communicate that they are gay or bisexual without saying a word.
 
Well, that’s all fine, I guess. But I feel like we’ve strayed too far from what this was originally about. This arose from the question of how trans characters could be integrated into Trek stories, not if writers should do that in the first place. My point was that there’s multiple ways to do that and do it in a clever and meaningful way. Individual writers thinking they can’t or shouldn’t “challenge” viewers with the mere existence of trans people are an interesting topic, but are besides the point.

That's fair. There are absolutely a ton of ways it could be done... I just feel that most of the suggestions aren't particularly organic and would feel shoehorned in "just because". If the reason for adding in a trans character is just to have a trans character, I feel like that's doing it wrong. I think it's better to start with the story first and then if the story featuring a trans character would add to the story beyond ticking off a diversity box, then absolutely go for it.

I do think this is interesting though, dealing with perspective and all. In my case, i'm not trans, and I don't believe I know anyone who is trans. I only know what I know through kind of cultural osmosis. I know a trans woman is a woman. If i'm writing, from the perspective of my experiences, i'm going to make the trans woman a... woman. It seems to me like focusing on the "trans" aspect would be the wrong thing to do, instead focusing on the "woman" aspect. It can be confusing... a trans woman is a woman, but i'm ALSO supposed to acknowledge them as a trans woman, not a woman? I honestly don't entirely understand... and just try to be as respectful as possible and default to "I'm going to think you are whatever you say you are."

A further issue I would have is something I kind of had with Adira, making any kind of a big deal out of someone being trans in Trek doesn't make sense for the setting. It shouldn't be some great reveal moment. It should be a "nobody cares" moment, but in the most positive way. I feel like even Stamets' reaction to Adira was too much. The real conversation should have been
Adira: "I'm not a she, I prefer they"
Stamets: "You got it."

Move on like nothing happened because it's nothing shocking?
 
That's fair. There are absolutely a ton of ways it could be done... I just feel that most of the suggestions aren't particularly organic and would feel shoehorned in "just because". If the reason for adding in a trans character is just to have a trans character, I feel like that's doing it wrong. I think it's better to start with the story first and then if the story featuring a trans character would add to the story beyond ticking off a diversity box, then absolutely go for it.
Setting aside that I personally feel “just because” is reason enough to include a trans character, isn’t the way you see this a problem for all kinds of characters aspects? I mean, why ever include a pregnant character, when not all audience members will want to be parents? Why writing about a married couple, when not everyone in the audience will want to get married? Why write a character that’s racist, when only a small part of any audience will be racists themselves? Why write characters as being from different parts of the world or from different religions, when the vast majority of your audience is not from that place or of that religion?

All
aspects you can give a character in your story are there “just because”. You try to write a character that’s interesting and whose identity you can use to write an interesting story. I don’t see why “being trans” should somehow be a character trait that allegedly only there to “ticking off a diversity box”, when all kinds of character traits can and will only be part of some minority among the audience.

I do think this is interesting though, dealing with perspective and all. In my case, i'm not trans, and I don't believe I know anyone who is trans. I only know what I know through kind of cultural osmosis. I know a trans woman is a woman. If i'm writing, from the perspective of my experiences, i'm going to make the trans woman a... woman. It seems to me like focusing on the "trans" aspect would be the wrong thing to do, instead focusing on the "woman" aspect. It can be confusing... a trans woman is a woman, but i'm ALSO supposed to acknowledge them as a trans woman, not a woman? I honestly don't entirely understand... and just try to be as respectful as possible and default to "I'm going to think you are whatever you say you are."
Well, I think the problem I see is that for me “being a woman” and “being a trans woman” are not mutually exclusive identities. One can and often will include the other. Sure, in some ideal utopia a trans woman is only ever seen as a woman by society, but that doesn’t really describe the lived experience of many trans people in today’s world. So I think it’s not unreasonable to expect that our stories also tell about these kind of experiences, whether it’s in a story set nowadays or set in the 24th century.
 
Setting aside that I personally feel “just because” is reason enough to include a trans character, isn’t the way you see this a problem for all kinds of characters aspects? I mean, why ever include a pregnant character, when not all audience members will want to be parents? Why writing about a married couple, when not everyone in the audience will want to get married? Why write a character that’s racist, when only a small part of any audience will be racists themselves? Why write characters as being from different parts of the world or from different religions, when the vast majority of your audience is not from that place or of that religion?

I don't think any of those things should be there unless there is a reason for it.

It's not about "if only some people want this", it's about being relevant to the story. No, I don't think there should be a pregnant character, unless it is relevant to the story. There shouldn't be married characters unless being married is relevant to the story. There shouldn't be racist characters unless their racism is relevant to the story. There shouldn't be characters from different parts of the world or different religions unless those traits are relevant to the story.

Or, at the very least, it might be more accurate to say there shouldn't be specific call outs to those things if they are not relevant to the story. I can include a black character, who exists and people know that he's black because he's black... I would probably NOT have a story arc focused around him telling everyone how black he is... it's why something like trans people are more difficult because it's more difficult to tell on the surface level. I know when a black character is black. I'll only know a trans character is trans if you tell me. And if you tell me something, there needs to be a story relevant reason for doing so.

I'm a huge proponent of "show, don't tell" in stories... and there's not really great appropriate ways to show that. It's easy to show a gay character is gay. Trans will almost certainly require dialogue, which should then be story-relevant.

I don’t see why “being trans” should somehow be a character trait that allegedly only there to “ticking off a diversity box”, when all kinds of character traits can and will only be part of some minority among the audience.

That's absolutely true. A trans character existing does not mean that character is there just to tick off a diversity box, but ALSO they could be, and maybe a bit too often today, are.

So I think it’s not unreasonable to expect that our stories also tell about these kind of experiences, whether it’s in a story set nowadays or set in the 24th century.

In most any other context, i'd say... yes.

In the context of Star Trek, the utopian vision of the future... no. We should beyond that. A trans character shouldn't even bat an eye in Star Trek. There's literally no reason for it ever even be brought up, nobody cares in the same vein of Uhura being called a racial slur by Space Lincoln, getting apologized to, and her reaction is basically "You said a word. Why would I care?"

Offshoot onto that, it was a weird issue in DS9, in "Badda Bing, Badda Boom", Sisko's reaction the Vegas program is odd for a 24th century person... from a person who definitely has not experienced any sort of racial discrimination in the slightest degree, being super against going to a recreation of 60's Vegas because the 60's was kind of racist? My dude, you're like 300 years removed from literally any sort of racism.
 
A further issue I would have is something I kind of had with Adira, making any kind of a big deal out of someone being trans in Trek doesn't make sense for the setting. It shouldn't be some great reveal moment. It should be a "nobody cares" moment, but in the most positive way. I feel like even Stamets' reaction to Adira was too much. The real conversation should have been
Adira: "I'm not a she, I prefer they"
Stamets: "You got it."

Move on like nothing happened because it's nothing shocking
Hm, isn’t that basically exactly like the scene went down? I just rewatched it.

ADIRA: Um, “they”. Not “she”. I’ve never felt like a “she” or a “her”, so … I would prefer “they” or “them” from now on.
STAMETS: Okay. [smiles]

Offshoot onto that, it was a weird issue in DS9, in "Badda Bing, Badda Boom", Sisko's reaction the Vegas program is odd for a 24th century person... from a person who definitely has not experienced any sort of racial discrimination in the slightest degree, being super against going to a recreation of 60's Vegas because the 60's was kind of racist? My dude, you're like 300 years removed from literally any sort of racism.
I don’t want to argue about that particular scene, because I too think it felt a little out of place. But I want to say that it strikes me as at least a little ironic that in some instances you think you should keep today’s audience in mind when you write a story (i.e. “I don’t want to alienate or challenge them with ‘taking a side’ when including a trans character”) and in others you’re advocating for ignoring that the story is written for today’s audience (i.e. “a black man being okay with an ahistorical 1960s Las Vegas might be problematic in the minds of today’s audience, but a 24th century black man wouldn’t mind”.)
 
I find the whole question a bit "Why do you have to insert a character with this or that characteristic?!? What reason is there?!?" a little bizarre. Because it can be extended to any type of character that does not reflect the average expected audience. "I don't see the point in introducing a red-haired character if not for a really valid narrative reason. We risk alienating all black-haired viewers, who are the vast majority. Yes, we know there are red-haired viewers, but they are few and we are certainly not obliged to guarantee them representation in the series."

People with characteristics that deviate from the perceived average exist. I don't see why this is a valid reason to marginalize and hide them.
 
I don’t want to argue about that particular scene, because I too think it felt a little out of place. But I want to say that it strikes me as at least a little ironic that in some instances you think you should keep today’s audience in mind when you write a story (i.e. “I don’t want to alienate or challenge them with ‘taking a side’ when including a trans character”) and in others you’re advocating for ignoring that the story is written for today’s audience (i.e. “a black man being okay with an ahistorical 1960s Las Vegas might be problematic in the minds of today’s audience, but a 24th century black man wouldn’t mind”.)

It's the difference between being active or passive.

Actively bringing up a topic has potential to alienate.

Not bringing up a topic has much less potential to alienate.

Going out of the way to make sure we have a trans character is being active and deliberate about including that. *I* think that's perfectly fine, even if I would prefer there to be a story-relevant reason. Others may be put off by it, leading it to be the path of most alienation. Just not including a character does not imply those people do not exist, they just simply aren't a part of this story, as far as we know.

Simply not bringing up a topic is being passive. Everything depends on context, but I don't think it's particularly important when discussing a recreation of 60's Vegas to go into racism. Simply not bringing it up at all would seem to be the path to the least amount of alienation.

At the end of the day, I view things from a more business-related lens. I prefer things to appeal to the largest possible audience. I personally don't want to write things that are already in a niche genre (sci-fi), further limited to a niche audience within the niche. At the very least, I want the largest possible audience, and I want to try to make the least amount of people uncomfortable when consuming my media. It sucks that people get uncomfortable with this sort of topic, they shouldn't, but we've talked about it "today's audience" and it is what it is.

I tend to have an issue with not knowing when to stop. I think this has been a good discussion, but i'm starting to feel like it could degrade into something else and at this point is WAY off the OP. I'm going to bow out for now and let the topic reassert itself away from the derail.
 
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I don't think any of those things should be there unless there is a reason for it.
I agree to some extent. Star Trek is a very plot driven show, not literary fiction.
In the context of Star Trek, the utopian vision of the future... no. We should beyond that. A trans character shouldn't even bat an eye in Star Trek. There's literally no reason for it ever even be brought up, nobody cares in the same vein of Uhura being called a racial slur by Space Lincoln, getting apologized to, and her reaction is basically "You said a word. Why would I care?"
We moved beyond utopian Trek in the 90s.

That being said, I see no reason not to include a trans character, and I think something similar to what Michael proposed could work, however, having a trans character solely to be able to say look we have a trans character? Not so much.

By the way EvilChumlee is your username derived from the MythAdventures character?
 
I’m sorry, but I’ve read your post a number of times and fail to understand how it’s relevant to anything I said in the post you’re quoting. How does anything you’re saying relate to if and how trans people could be included in a Trek show?
Because SNW's "Ad Astra per Aspera" attempts to be a LGBTQ allegory but doesn't think through the implications of its story or how the issue it's using to project that allegory has previously been used in canon to call out the very idea of parents deciding a child's identity.

Yes, there are ways to bring up trans identity in a way that would be interesting, but there's also ways to screw it up and make it incoherent, or even worse where it becomes the Trek equivalent of "a very special episode" that's tokenism.
 
By the way EvilChumlee is your username derived from the MythAdventures character?

I had no idea what that was until right now. Looks interesting. The nickname is actually from Chumlee from "Pawn Stars"... when I was heavier IRL, some people said I resembled him and the nickname stuck. Where "Evil" came from I don't know, but it popped in there and I ran with it.

Yes, there are ways to bring up trans identity in a way that would be interesting, but there's also ways to screw it up and make it incoherent, or even worse where it becomes the Trek equivalent of "a very special episode" that's tokenism.

I'll comment on one last thing on this topic...

I think you summarized what I was trying to say much more eloquently than my word walls described. There's no issue at all with doing this, but doing in the "token" way is bad.

Also Trek has a perfect, built-in way to do the topic in the Trill. Discovery came so close. Rather than Adira just being like "I always felt this way", have the Trill experience be the allegory. Hell, let's evolve the Joined Trill into being something a "trans-race", or maybe more specifically a non-binary race. They've got multiple life experiences from different genders in there, as a Trill gets older, they may well just start to blur the lines of their identities. That's something I could be totally on board with.
 
Because SNW's "Ad Astra per Aspera" attempts to be a LGBTQ allegory but doesn't think through the implications of its story or how the issue it's using to project that allegory has previously been used in canon to call out the very idea of parents deciding a child's identity.

Yes, there are ways to bring up trans identity in a way that would be interesting, but there's also ways to screw it up and make it incoherent, or even worse where it becomes the Trek equivalent of "a very special episode" that's tokenism.
Didn't SNW include a trans actor already? Angel?

Now that brings up the question of whether the character was trans or just the person playing them. And surely that doesn't matter in the story they were telling so it wasn't mentioned at all, which is how it should be.
 
I'm a huge proponent of "show, don't tell" in stories... and there's not really great appropriate ways to show that. It's easy to show a gay character is gay. Trans will almost certainly require dialogue, which should then be story-relevant.

Personally, I agree in part. I think that some shows over explain and lose the realism of the thing they’re then trying to include, but more often then not I think that’s just writers not fully understanding/having experience writing trans characters into creation. I definitely think there’s more subtle ways of writing a character being trans into the story without it being “clunky”. My favourite way (which I think is underutilised) would definitely be set design and details like that that isn’t verbal (having a trans pride sticker on a laptop, a lot of teens still have a couple teddys so having kids toys that are usually for the opposite gender, any family photos having a kid that looks similar but is opposite gender, just simple things in set design) albeit with Trek I think you’d have to be a bit more creative with doing this, it can still be done. Along with a canon confirmation, subtle set design and dialogue that doesn’t gloss over it it can be included without those conversations (though weird conversations do happen, in trek it’s safe to assume differently).

I also think the way in which trans and other queer characters are represented differs heavily between target age audiences. A lot of queer media for younger audiences (Red, White and Royal Blue, Heartstopper, She-Ra, Aristotle and Dante) tend to over explain or draw attention to it in a way that isn’t as natural as more mature tv because they’re trying to explain to kids in a heteronormative environment/give them representation (albeit i can’t watch/read some of the shows listed because i find it “cringey” but i know a lot of people younger than me found it important to them). When the target audience is older, and the characters themselves are more nuance can be taken because (hopefully) the audience has better media literacy and the adults are more comfortable in themselves, which is when I think writers can contrast your point. It doesn’t have to be a long conversation or ongoing plot point of THIS CHARACTER IS TRANS EVERYONE (obviously it can be but that would then be a story with a different aim to what trek usually has, which is representation that’s more subtle since it’s in the future and is THERE (and often is a headline) but isn’t the whole story of the show), it can be an off handed comment (again not all writers have ever had to offhandedly tell someone they’re trans/drop something so crucial to their identity that’s so polarising to a massive audience, so they’re not great at it YET), or good set design, hell it can even just be a quick mess up of a gender marker on formatting (my friend is currently having hell with her Chess rankings because she’s at tournaments playing as a girl but her ranking/account stuff was set up with a male gender marker). It can and will be done, it doesn’t need to be story relevant to be included.

A trans character existing does not mean that character is there just to tick off a diversity box, but ALSO they could be, and maybe a bit too often today, are.

sometimes this is the case and honestly you can tell, but representation has to start somewhere and if this leads to more trans characters on screen it will lead to BETTER representation in the future… so i’ll deal with some less than flattering initial representation for the long term outcome (hell watching some films from 70 years ago have some pretty horrendous black representation, but it has improved… it takes making sure people don’t just stop because it’s not “story relevant” or just using it as a check box.. but it DOES improve)

In the context of Star Trek, the utopian vision of the future... no. We should beyond that. A trans character shouldn't even bat an eye in Star Trek. There's literally no reason for it ever even be brought up, nobody cares in the same vein of Uhura being called a racial slur by Space Lincoln, getting apologized to, and her reaction is basically "You said a word. Why would I care?"

But that is an example of bringing up her race, yeah she doesn’t care but that in itself is story telling. It needs to be brought up to show how tolerant the society is, otherwise how will people know. The same should be said for a trans character, other people shouldn’t care but that doesn’t take away from the fact they are trans. When they meet space lincoln or whatever they’d have a similar reaction, they wouldn’t care because society has progressed but lincoln would care.

(This has gotten so long and I’ve forgotten what i’ve said at the beginning of this but whatever. Obviously this isn’t aimed at you, you just brought up some points i wanted to contrast)
 
Offshoot onto that, it was a weird issue in DS9, in "Badda Bing, Badda Boom", Sisko's reaction the Vegas program is odd for a 24th century person... from a person who definitely has not experienced any sort of racial discrimination in the slightest degree, being super against going to a recreation of 60's Vegas because the 60's was kind of racist? My dude, you're like 300 years removed from literally any sort of racism.

this didn't bother me because the 60's wasn't "kind of" racist, it was viciously racist. By the same token, I wouldn't expect a 24th-century Jewish person to enjoy Holographic recreations of 1930's Germany.

As far as Adira goes, I disliked it because it reeked of pandering. When you contrast how Adira was used versus how Captain Angel was used on SNW, it's night and day. Likewise with Gray. I know the actor is trans (Or NB or something, I honestly don't know), but on screen the character is ID'd male. Is he trans? Maybe. He certainly looks like he could be. But no one on the show cares. They just accept him without question.
 
Kirk: Tarsus 4.
Spock: bullied, estranged paternal relationship. "So human. "
McCoy: divorced.
Comics had more tragedies for Scotty and McCoy.

Picard: estranged paternal relationship.
Riker: estranged paternal relationship.
Wesley: dad died.
Worf: bullied, fearful of his strength.
Geordi: born blind.

Chakotay: strained paternal relationship.
Tuvok: emotional dysregulation as a child.
Paris: strained emotional relationship with his dad.
B'elanna: divorced parents, bullied,


This is not new.
TOS characters have needed therapy from the first episode. There should be a therapist on SNW and DISC, and any TOS reboot
 
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