Star Trek Canon Problems

[evilchumlee]

I (wrongly) extrapolated from the handful of trans people I know who focus on passing. Either way, without personal conversations about gender identity, how would it come up?

I think this is the winner right here.

Unless the trans character is a main character... and even IF they are... why would we even have this information? At what point does their trans identity become relevant to anything going on? I understand how same sex couples would come up... people have relationships, so it's quite easy to represent that by showing their relationship. But trans? The only way we would ever know is if the work/character goes out of its way to tell us.

I have a story of my own with a trans woman character in it. But... the reader would probably never actually know this, because I just write her as a woman. At no point in the story does she feel the need to say "Oh, by the way, i'm TRANS!"... it's just not relevant to anything. If there was a reason for it be relevant, sure, but as of now I haven't encountered anything.

There is also a part of me that wonder this... since gender is a social construct, and we know society has changed quite a bit by the 23rd/24th century. Is it then outlandish to think that with the changing society, the amount of people identifying as trans may just be less than it is in 2024?

 

[BillJ]

The multiverse cures all of the canon and continuity problems in the franchise, and also can account for all stories told outside the various TV series.

 

[evilchumlee]

The multiverse cures all of the canon and continuity problems in the franchise, and also can account for all stories told outside the various TV series.

This is a problem in Trek though. The multiverse *COULD* cure everything... except in Trek, The Powers That Be have vehemently denied that and a have been very explicit that is NOT the case.

If DSC/SNW were in a parallel universe/alt timeline, there's no issue at all. It makes so much sense.

But... they are not. It all exists as one single, "Prime Timeline" universe. (Even though SNW "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" totally established a "But actually..." thing that totally established multiverse/alt timelines to stuff we knew about...)

 

[BillJ]

This is a problem in Trek though. The multiverse *COULD* cure everything... except in Trek, The Powers That Be have vehemently denied that and a have been very explicit that is NOT the case.

I tend to look at things and come to my own conclusions where Trek (and entertainment) is concerned. When Paramount starts writing me checks, then they can dictate how I interpret the material.

 

[Michael]

I think this is the winner right here.

Unless the trans character is a main character... and even IF they are... why would we even have this information? At what point does their trans identity become relevant to anything going on? I understand how same sex couples would come up... people have relationships, so it's quite easy to represent that by showing their relationship. But trans? The only way we would ever know is if the work/character goes out of its way to tell us.

Well, my first question would be, why wouldn’t or shouldn’t there be a conversation about gender identity on the show where this comes up? The argument of “in the 23rd/24th century there would be less trans people” or “you wouldn’t recognize them” is an all-too convenient excuse to not have any trans representation on your 21st century television show.

But okay, just spitballing here: I feel like we had plenty of scenes in previous Trek episodes where a non-corporeal alien meets our characters and comments on perceiving the difference in their sex or gender appearance. Have a situation like that and have your trans character explain to the alien why they might perceive their gender differently from their biological sex. So off the top of my head this is just one possible sci-fi way of incorporating the trans identity of a character in your show. For non sci-fi ways of doing that you could just have the character come out and say it. In reality we often have trans people disclosing their transness when they use a dating platform or when they start seeing someone. I don’t see a reason why that wouldn’t be so in the future.

If I, as a non-writer, can come up with two possible ways of having trans characters on Trek just by thinking about it for five minutes, I’m sure good professional writers can come up with multiple even better and more interesting ways. But sure, you have to be a writer who’s willing to have trans representation on their show.

EDIT: Just thought of another way: Have a pregnant trans male character. Problem solved.

 

[Michael]

Just for shits and giggles …


[Scene opens on the bridge of the starship USS Horizon. A glowing orb of light materializes in front of Ensign Taylor.]

Alien: (telepathically) Taylor entity, we sense a unique configuration within your being that diverges from the established patterns of your species. Among all human entities on this vessel, your outward shell does not seem to align with your form. Explain this anomaly.

Ensign Taylor: (surprised) My outward shell? I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by a unique configuration?

Alien: (emitting a soft glow) Among your crewmates, the link between physical shell and biological form is clear and consistent. However, in your case, the essence you project suggests a different alignment. What defines this discrepancy within you?

Ensign Taylor: (slowly comprehending) Ah ... I see what you're getting at. I am transgender. While my biological sex is male, my gender identity is female. It's a part of who I am.

Alien: (inquiring) Transgender ... a concept unknown to our kind. Your ability to navigate this divergence is a testament to your inner strength. How do you reconcile this dual nature within your being?

Ensign Taylor: (reflectively) It has been a journey of self-discovery and acceptance, striving to honor my true self despite expectations. Embracing my identity has been a source of empowerment and growth.

Alien: (pulsing with understanding) Your journey of self-realization resonates with our eternal quest for unity amidst diversity. Your truth shines brightly across the cosmos, a beacon of authenticity and acceptance.

[The orb of light pulses in acknowledgment before fading away, leaving Ensign Taylor with a sense of validation and connection amidst the stars.]

 

[fireproof78]

This is a problem in Trek though. The multiverse *COULD* cure everything... except in Trek, The Powers That Be have vehemently denied that and a have been very explicit that is NOT the case.

If DSC/SNW were in a parallel universe/alt timeline, there's no issue at all. It makes so much sense.

But... they are not. It all exists as one single, "Prime Timeline" universe. (Even though SNW "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" totally established a "But actually..." thing that totally established multiverse/alt timelines to stuff we knew about...)

So, treat it as such. I'll reiterate that if I am focusing on timelines while watching an episode the show has failed on a dramatic level.

 

[evilchumlee]

But okay, just spitballing here: I feel like we had plenty of scenes in previous Trek episodes where a non-corporeal alien meets our characters and comments on perceiving the difference in their sex or gender appearance. Have a situation like that and have your trans character explain to the alien why they might perceive their gender differently from their biological sex. So off the top of my head this is just one possible sci-fi way of incorporating the trans identity of a character in your show.

Sure, but at it's really just engineering the situation to happen specifically so that it happens to a trans character so that they specifically can talk about how they are trans... if the goal of the show is to "make sure everything is represented and check off all the boxes" then sure, yes. If the goal is to tell a good story... why go out of the way to make that conversation happen with an incredibly convenient (or, inconvenient potentially) character?

For non sci-fi ways of doing that you could just have the character come out and say it. In reality we often have trans people disclosing their transness when they use a dating platform or when they start seeing someone. I don’t see a reason why that wouldn’t be so in the future

.

Sure, but again you're really just having to completely engineer that to happen for the sole reason of telling us the character is trans.

That's bad storytelling. If there is a point in the story where any of this is organically relevant, go for it. But going out of the way to concoct a situation where you get the "AHA!" moment of being able to say "look, we have trans people! LOOK AT US!" is pointless at best, insulting at worst.

If I, as a non-writer, can come up with two possible ways of having trans characters on Trek just by thinking about it for five minutes, I’m sure good professional writers can come up with multiple even better and more interesting ways. But sure, you have to be a writer who’s willing to have trans representation on their show.

They were possible ways. They just weren't good possible ways. We're having an odd argument here. From my perspective as a wannabe writer, i'm absolutely willing to have trans representation in my work. I also don't feel the need to go out of my way and make a contrived situation to show everyone how progressive I am because I have trans representation in my work.

I'm at not point saying there is no possible way to do it, or that having trans people is bad. I'm saying that doing it just for the sake of it doing without any actual relevance to the plot is bad writing.

EDIT: Just thought of another way: Have a pregnant trans male character. Problem solved.

And what relevance to the story does this have? That's my entire point. If you have a story idea where a trans man being pregnant is somehow important or relevant to the story then... yes. Do it. That's great. Don't do it just to say "Look, trans people!"

One of my issues here is that 2024-World is obsessed with "Representation"... sort of. It's a very narrow obsession. At not point, ever, have I personally witnessed anyone complain about the lack of Inuit representation on Star Trek. I have seen nobody complain about the lack of Afghani representation. I've only heard a relevantly small amount of complaints about lack of South Asian representation. We're narrowly focused on one thing that represents a small population. There's nothing wrong with having that representation. There's ALSO nothing wrong with not having it.

So, treat it as such. I'll reiterate that if I am focusing on timelines while watching an episode the show has failed on a dramatic level.

I do, but then people on internet forums get angry at me

 

[Michael]

And what relevance to the story does this have? That's my entire point. If you have a story idea where a trans man being pregnant is somehow important or relevant to the story then... yes. Do it. That's great. Don't do it just to say "Look, trans people!"

Huh, then don’t do it “just to say ‘Look, trans people!’” Make your story about the trans character being pregnant. Make it about the alien who doesn’t know or understand what’s an everyday thing to future people. Make it about a character experiencing dating life as a trans person. You’re saying it would be irrelevant that these characters are trans, but that would only be so if one were to write it as an irrelevant throwaway information.

I feel like we have completely different views about what a story is and why we as humans tell them. In my mind one important aspect is that we tell stories as a way of reflecting on the human experience. Whenever you tell a story about a character experiencing X (where X is an experience humans in reality go through), you’re basically doing it to move other people, have people recognize that experience (either because they’ve experienced it themselves or because it’s an experience totally foreign to them), sympathize with the character going through the experience, or be disgusted with the character for having that experience. Point is, you want people to engage with what you’re telling. Tell them something about themself or something about others. You as the writer determine what’s relevant for the people receiving your story. That’s the power of writing.

 

[evilchumlee]

Huh, then don’t do it “just to say ‘Look, trans people!’” Make your story about the trans character being pregnant. Make it about the alien who doesn’t know or understand what’s an everyday thing to future people. Make it about a character experiencing dating life as a trans person. You’re saying it would be irrelevant that these characters are trans, but that would only be so if one were to write it as an irrelevant throwaway information.

That's what I was saying the whole time... if you have a story where the information about being trans is relevant to the story, then go ahead and do it...

I feel like we have completely different views about what a story is and why we as humans tell them. In my mind one important aspect is that we tell stories as a way of reflecting on the human experience.

I'll go piecemeal here... agreed...

Whenever you tell a story about a character experiencing X (where X is an experience humans in reality go through), you’re basically doing it to move other people, have people recognize that experience (either because they’ve experienced it themselves or because it’s an experience totally foreign to them),

I'm still on board here.

sympathize with the character going through the experience, or be disgusted with the character for having that experience.

This might be where it gets dicey in context of the specific subject matter we are discussing. If i'm writing something, one thing I don't want to do is alienate the reader. Challenging them is ok, but I don't want to outright alienate them. This might be where we, and some other writers, have a bit of a divergence. I generally try to not "pick a side", I just want to tell a story. I would lean away from going out of my way to tell a trans story, full well knowing that (unfortunately, mind you), some may be alienated by it. Going by the old Trek addage, the needs of the many... I feel like the response of people who be actively alienated by it would be more severe than those thinking "oh man, there should be more representation".

That said, if there was a story I wanted to tell that was an organically appropriate time to introduce the information, then sure. I think that's the kicker through. When I, or the writer in general, wants to tell that story. If a writer wants to tell that story, awesome. Do it. IF a writer is not interested in telling that story? That truly is actually ok. It's their story.

Point is, you want people to engage with what you’re telling. Tell them something about themself or something about others. You as the writer determine what’s relevant for the people receiving your story. That’s the power of writing.

That's true, but some perspectives may skew that in a certain way. The writer determines what is relevant for people receiving your story. If the writer is not particularly connected to x group, they may not be interested in stories about x group. That's probably a good thing overall... I think we have enough examples of a writer who is not affiliated with x group writing about/for x group that really doesn't land, or is even outright offensive.

 

[fireproof78]

I do, but then people on internet forums get angry at me

And?

 

[evilchumlee]

And?

I thought the angry Klingon emoji would convey a sense of being facetious.

Perhaps I failed. Although with a nugget of reality, part of my Star Trek hobby is... discussing it online with other Trek fans. It becomes problematic to have those discussions when the parties are not speaking from the same frame of reference.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought the angry Klingon emoji would convey a sense of being facetious.

Perhaps I failed. Although with a nugget of reality, part of my Star Trek hobby is... discussing it online with other Trek fans. It becomes problematic to have those discussions when the parties are not speaking from the same frame of reference.

I echo your facetiousness.

However, to the greater aspect of different frames of reference, I think online discussions there is a quicker jump to assume an insult or otherwise negative comments which are actually meant as neutral. If you're engaging with a show as an alternate timeline I'll take it in stride. It's not that big of a deal to me because the characters work better for you in that instance. I'm the same with TOS to TMP to TWOK. They all feel distinctly different.

 

[BillJ]

Well, my first question would be, why wouldn’t or shouldn’t there be a conversation about gender identity on the show where this comes up?

It takes a deft writer to make it come across without seeming like pandering.

 

[Skipper]

 

[BillJ]

Why does this look like it has been sitting in someone's attic for 60 years?

 

[cooleddie74]

The Picture of Soren Gray.

 

[Citiprime]

Well, my first question would be, why wouldn’t or shouldn’t there be a conversation about gender identity on the show where this comes up? The argument of “in the 23rd/24th century there would be less trans people” or “you wouldn’t recognize them” is an all-too convenient excuse to not have any trans representation on your 21st century television show.

But okay, just spitballing here: I feel like we had plenty of scenes in previous Trek episodes where a non-corporeal alien meets our characters and comments on perceiving the difference in their sex or gender appearance. Have a situation like that and have your trans character explain to the alien why they might perceive their gender differently from their biological sex. So off the top of my head this is just one possible sci-fi way of incorporating the trans identity of a character in your show. For non sci-fi ways of doing that you could just have the character come out and say it. In reality we often have trans people disclthatosing their transness when they use a dating platform or when they start seeing someone. I don’t see a reason why that wouldn’t be so in the future.

If I, as a non-writer, can come up with two possible ways of having trans characters on Trek just by thinking about it for five minutes, I’m sure good professional writers can come up with multiple even better and more interesting ways. But sure, you have to be a writer who’s willing to have trans representation on their show.

EDIT: Just thought of another way: Have a pregnant trans male character. Problem solved.

These sort of issues is why I find season 2 of SNW's "Ad Astra per Aspera" EXTREMELY problematic and borderline offensive.

The episode approaches things with a civil rights theme that positions the Federation's genetic engineering ban as discriminatory. But it completely ignores the implications expounded on in DS9's "Dr. Bashir I Presume" where the ability of people to determine their own agency is something that's key to that episode and the source of Bashir's resentment towards his parents. His parents chose a version of his persona that they would be proud of and wanted and created it for him to live. His agency was an afterthought.

"As Astra per Aspera" tries to center the situation as a civil rights issue where the genetically enginerred are discriminated against. But it ignores the problem that it creates in a society where parents rob children of their agency and assign qualities to their children against their will. It's arguably child abuse, and a legitimate reason why the Federation would prohibit it.

Using the tech we've seen, a transchild could be assigned a gender by parents who wanted a specific outcome, and robs the agency of the individual to make their own decision about what they want.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Didn't Disco already cover much of this with like 2 lines from Gray, when they were making the synth body?

 

[Michael]

That's what I was saying the whole time... if you have a story where the information about being trans is relevant to the story, then go ahead and do it...



I'll go piecemeal here... agreed...



I'm still on board here.



This might be where it gets dicey in context of the specific subject matter we are discussing. If i'm writing something, one thing I don't want to do is alienate the reader. Challenging them is ok, but I don't want to outright alienate them. This might be where we, and some other writers, have a bit of a divergence. I generally try to not "pick a side", I just want to tell a story. I would lean away from going out of my way to tell a trans story, full well knowing that (unfortunately, mind you), some may be alienated by it. Going by the old Trek addage, the needs of the many... I feel like the response of people who be actively alienated by it would be more severe than those thinking "oh man, there should be more representation".

That said, if there was a story I wanted to tell that was an organically appropriate time to introduce the information, then sure. I think that's the kicker through. When I, or the writer in general, wants to tell that story. If a writer wants to tell that story, awesome. Do it. IF a writer is not interested in telling that story? That truly is actually ok. It's their story.



That's true, but some perspectives may skew that in a certain way. The writer determines what is relevant for people receiving your story. If the writer is not particularly connected to x group, they may not be interested in stories about x group. That's probably a good thing overall... I think we have enough examples of a writer who is not affiliated with x group writing about/for x group that really doesn't land, or is even outright offensive.

Well, that’s all fine, I guess. But I feel like we’ve strayed too far from what this was originally about. This arose from the question of how trans characters could be integrated into Trek stories, not if writers should do that in the first place. My point was that there’s multiple ways to do that and do it in a clever and meaningful way. Individual writers thinking they can’t or shouldn’t “challenge” viewers with the mere existence of trans people are an interesting topic, but are besides the point.

These sort of issues is why I find season 2 of SNW's "Ad Astra per Aspera" EXTREMELY problematic and borderline offensive.

The episode approaches things with a civil rights theme that positions the Federation's genetic engineering ban as discriminatory. But it completely ignores the implications expounded on in DS9's "Dr. Bashir I Presume" where the ability of people to determine their own agency is something that's key to that episode and the source of Bashir's resentment towards his parents. His parents chose a version of his persona that they would be proud of and wanted and created it for him to live. His agency was an afterthought.

"As Astra per Aspera" tries to center the situation as a civil rights issue where the genetically enginerred are discriminated against. But it ignores the problem that it creates in a society where parents rob children of their agency and assign qualities to their children against their will. It's arguably child abuse, and a legitimate reason why the Federation would prohibit it.

Using the tech we've seen, a transchild could be assigned a gender by parents who wanted a specific outcome, and robs the agency of the individual to make their own decision about what they want.

I’m sorry, but I’ve read your post a number of times and fail to understand how it’s relevant to anything I said in the post you’re quoting. How does anything you’re saying relate to if and how trans people could be included in a Trek show?