What is your personal head canon?

[BillJ]

Under what law would they try Khan and his supermen, beyond what they did with Kirk's ship?

Interesting question. Can you try someone for crimes committed before the current government existed? I imagine United Earth might have a case, as they ended up as the continuation of Earth's governments after World War III. The Federation? Not so much.

 

[cooleddie74]

It'd be like using U.S. federal law to prosecute someone who committed mass killings during the early 18th century in one of the 13 Colonies. British law would have been responsible for prosecuting that person and the best you could do is use current law under the present government and Constitutional procedures to seek justice for the victims' descendants, though said victims are all long dead and were murdered before the United States even existed.

 

[BillJ]

It'd be like using U.S. federal law to prosecute someone who committed mass killings during the early 18th century in one of the 13 Colonies. British law would have been responsible for prosecuting that person and the best you could do is use current law under the present government and Constitutional procedures to seek justice for the victims' descendants, though said victims are all long dead and were murdered before the United States even existed.

Which would be a waste of time and resources. It seems like Kirk took the only sensible route.

 

[cooleddie74]

I'D have dumped them on a habitable planet and then left. He did his duty. He got his ship back and freed his crew and defeated Khan and the Augments. That was the end of his responsibility as a Starfleet officer. Everything else is just fan theorizing and handwringing.

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure a skilled defender could get Khan and his people off, even of the charges for taking the Enterprise. He and his people woke up in a strange place and did what they thought they needed to do to survive.

Then you have a Eugenics superman running around free to do what they pleased.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I prefer to believe Chekov was on the ship, just not a bridge officer.

I'm liking the explanation that Chekov was a security redshirt at the time. I think that's what most of the relevant novels went with. It would certainly explain why Chekov was security chief in TMP.

In his book To Reign in Hell, Greg Cox had Chekov as one of the Enterprise security detail that put Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha V. Allan Asherman wrote in DC's Who's Who in Star Trek that Chekov was one of the workers in engineering who went up against Khan. I'm sure there have been other explanations of Chekov's offscreen exploits in "Space Seed."

 

[Citiprime]

Under what law would they try Khan and his supermen, beyond what they did with Kirk's ship?

If the current ICC and UN standards are still recognized into the 23rd century, there are NO statute of limitations on genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.

 

[fireproof78]

If the current ICC and UN standards are still recognized into the 23rd century, there are NO statute of limitations on genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.

One would ask if those would still be recognized, and what obligation a Federation Starfleet officer would have to bring in such a person?

 

[BillJ]

If the current ICC and UN standards are still recognized into the 23rd century, there are NO statute of limitations on genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.

Problem is, those organizations haven't existed for centuries. Second, you would have no witnesses to what happened. Third, Spock called records of the period, fragmentary.

It would be tough to prosecute someone for three hundred year old crimes.

And, unless you're giving him all of eternity in prison as punishment, he is going to get out, at some point. Federation doesn't seem like the kind of outfit that would hand out cruel and unusual punishments.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even if the United States still exists in 2267 the laws in it would be different due to the accession of the one world government in the early-to-mid-22nd century and then membership in the Federation. The U.S. does exist in ENT's timeframe and there's a Yosemite National Park in California in 2287 but that could still mean the old laws and rules that existed before World War III no longer apply the way they were once written, or even at all.

 

[Macintosh]

Problem is, those organizations haven't existed for centuries.

Q states during one of the courtroom scenes in "Encounter at Farpoint" that the United Nations had been abolished by 2079, and their laws and regulations were no longer relevant after that time. Admittedly this is Q talking, but Picard and Data both seem to accept the argument, and they're the two who are most in "court room mode" at the time. We might reasonably assume the same is true of the International Criminal Court.

Edited for clarity because I'd merged two sentences together without noticing the redundancy this created.

 

[Commander Troi]

Yeah, there's a definite disconnect with how Khan was talked about in Space Seed vs elsewhere in Trek. In Space Seed it seems to be implied he was a Napoleon type figure who wanted to conquer other countries but wasn't especially brutal with the people he conquered. Later on they make him sound like Hitler like he wanted to wipe out all the non augments. So IDK, there's not as much continuity in a franchise that spans this long as some fans want there to be.

Scotty's comment that there were "no massacres under his rule" is contradicted by Into Darkness, where it's heavily implied that Khan pursued a policy of eliminating all non-augments.

There is no contradiction as Into Darkness is a different timeline than Space Seed.

 

[Citiprime]

One would ask if those would still be recognized, and what obligation a Federation Starfleet officer would have to bring in such a person?

Arguably, the same obligation that Kirk felt when there was reasonable suspicion that Kodos the Executioner may have been identified in "The Conscience of the King." Whether they were murdered on Tarsus IV or Earth in the Eugenics Wars, the mass murder of human beings is the same crime.

Problem is, those organizations haven't existed for centuries. Second, you would have no witnesses to what happened. Third, Spock called records of the period, fragmentary.

It would be tough to prosecute someone for three hundred year old crimes.

The government of Israel didn't exist during the Holocaust but still captured, prosecuted and punished Adolf Eichmann for crimes against humanity. And, unlike Kodos, Khan openly admitted his identity and the complicity of his actions in front of witnesses ("We offered the world order!").

Q states during one of the courtroom scenes in "Encounter at Farpoint" that the United Nations had been abolished by 2079, and their laws and regulations were no longer relevant after that time. Admittedly this is Q talking, but Picard and Data both seem to accept the argument, and they're the two who are most in "court room mode" at the time. We might reasonably assume the same is true of the International Criminal Court.

Actually, Q's exact words were:

Q: Objection denied. This is a court of the year 2079, by which time more rapid progress had caused all United Earth nonsense to be abolished.​

Since United Earth most definitely exists at least from the 2150s onwards, Q's argument doesn't exactly apply. Also, Picard and Data were arguing that "no Earth citizen could be made to answer for the crimes of his race or forbears." But that doesn't apply to Khan.

They wouldn't be asking him to assume responsibility for all augments, but to answer for his own choices.

There is no contradiction as Into Darkness is a different timeline than Space Seed.

The point of divergence in the Kelvin Universe is the destruction of the USS Kelvin. Everything in the timeline up to that point (i.e., the Eugenics Wars, the events of Star Trek: Enterprise, the Earth-Romulan War, etc.) should be exactly the same.

 

[fireproof78]

Arguably, the same obligation that Kirk felt when there was reasonable suspicion that Kodos the Executioner may have been identified in "The Conscience of the King." Whether they were murdered on Tarsus IV or Earth in the Eugenics Wars, the mass murder of human beings is the same crime.

To what body and by what action would Khan be held to account?

The point of divergence in the Kelvin Universe is the destruction of the USS Kelvin. Everything in the timeline up to that point (i.e., the Eugenics Wars, the events of Star Trek: Enterprise, the Earth-Romulan War, etc.) should be exactly the same.

And there's no contradiction.

 

[Citiprime]

To what body and by what action would Khan be held to account? .... And there's no contradiction.

If there's no contradiction, then the answer to your question is found in Into Darkness.

MARCUS [on viewscreen]: Where is your prisoner, Kirk?

KIRK: Per Starfleet regulation, I'm planning on returning Khan to Earth to stand trial.​

 

[fireproof78]

If there's no contradiction, then the answer to your question is found in Into Darkness.

MARCUS [on viewscreen]: Where is your prisoner, Kirk?

KIRK: Per Starfleet regulation, I'm planning on returning Khan to Earth to stand trial.​

Well, no.

It says he can stand trial, not before what body or under what law. I agree in principle but not on the actual legal machinations.

Further, at that point Khan had broken currwnt laws on Earth, under that system of government.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Q: Objection denied. This is a court of the year 2079, by which time more rapid progress had caused all United Earth nonsense to be abolished.

Not permanently. At some point in 2079, that appeared to be true, and as only the "rules" of 2079 applied, not those enacted before or since, Q's trial supposedly abided by them (or his view of same, however warped by his bias).

 

[Citiprime]

Well, no.

It says he can stand trial, not before what body or under what law. I agree in principle but not on the actual legal machinations.

Whether he's believable or not is completely an open question, but the dialogue from Admiral Marcus implies that maybe the records in the Kelvin Universe aren't as "fragmented," and Khan's journey aboard the Botany Bay wasn't voluntary, since Marcus claims Khan and his crew were "condemned" as "war criminals."

KIRK: And what exactly would you like me to do with the rest of his crew, sir? Fire them at the Klingons? End seventy two lives? Start a war in the process?​

MARCUS: He put those people in those torpedoes. And I simply didn't want to burden you with knowing what was inside of them. You saw what this man can do all by himself. Can you imagine what would happen if we woke up the rest of his crew? What else did he tell you? That he's a peacekeeper? He's playing you, son, don't you see that? Khan and his crew were condemned to death as war criminals. And now it is our duty to carry out that sentence before anybody else dies because of him. Now, I'm going to ask you again. One last time, son. Lower your shields. Tell me where he is.
​

If the legal status of Data's personhood was dependent on an "Acts of Cumberland" precedent from the early 21st century in TNG's "Measure of a Man," which Starfleet and the Federation still acknowledged and used as controlling authority, then it would strongly suggest that legal determinations of criminality about the Eugenics Wars would still apply. Especially given the Federation and United Earth use it as a justification for the genetic engineering ban.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

So how was he supposed to die, then? Fired into the sun, only his ship veered off course and was located later?

 

[fireproof78]

Whether he's believable or not is completely an open question, but the dialogue from Admiral Marcus implies that maybe the records in the Kelvin Universe aren't as "fragmented," and Khan's journey aboard the Botany Bay wasn't voluntary, since Marcus claims Khan and his crew were "condemned" as "war criminals."

Marcus can hardly be called a trustworthy source. And again, records not being as "fragmentary" is not conclusive since additional data might have been acquired by Marcus' discovery of the sleeper ship.

We don't know. We assume.