That’s retconned a bit by Star Trek Into Darkness.
Instead of him being a somewhat benevolent dictator, it’s implied that he’s a mass murderer.
What is your personal head canon?
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Instead of him being a somewhat benevolent dictator, it’s implied that he’s a mass murderer.
Although being in an alternate timeline changed by the Narada's arrival in 2233 Kirk and others could have well developed different attitudes about old Earth dictators like Khan just because they grew up differently than the Prime versions of themselves.
Odd, because Prime Kirk had personal experience with the whole Tarsus IV incident, unlike Kelvin Kirk (AFAIK). Which should have hardened prime Kirk against dictators.
It's different with a historical person vs. experiencing it first hand.
You mean he has a nostalgic, inaccurate view of "dictators then and now"?
Yes, as well as limited information vs. first hand.
Yeah, there's a definite disconnect with how Khan was talked about in Space Seed vs elsewhere in Trek. In Space Seed it seems to be implied he was a Napoleon type figure who wanted to conquer other countries but wasn't especially brutal with the people he conquered. Later on they make him sound like Hitler like he wanted to wipe out all the non augments. So IDK, there's not as much continuity in a franchise that spans this long as some fans want there to be.
The botany bay's computers probably offer more context that fhe fragmentary documentary evidence didn't offer previously to that discovery.
There is a common thought that history is uniform and known by all. But, it isn't always known perfectly, and is constantly being unpacked.
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This is a good in-universe explanation why Spock suddenly "retrieved" more information on Khan Noonien Singh after the dinner party.
My order of events:
1. They revive Khan;
2. In sickbay, they figure he is a genetic augment;
3. Kirk orders to prepare the Botany Bay for towing (I assume engineering teams are working on the BB including repairing and bringing systems back on line);
4. Dinner party with Khan;
5.The Botany Bay's antiquated computer records were finally repaired and downloaded;
6. Briefing Room with new information:
2. In sickbay, they figure he is a genetic augment;
3. Kirk orders to prepare the Botany Bay for towing (I assume engineering teams are working on the BB including repairing and bringing systems back on line);
4. Dinner party with Khan;
5.The Botany Bay's antiquated computer records were finally repaired and downloaded;
6. Briefing Room with new information:
YMMV
.
Same diff.
By definition a dictator can never be benevolent. I'm sure Khan had to kill a lot of people - both on his way to the top, and to maintain his hold on power. In a very real sense, all dictators are murderers.
And people who think Khan is such a straight-up dude should take a look at the bloodbath on Regula One. That wasn't so benevolent, was it?
As for Tarsus IV: If there's any evidence that nuKirk never lived there or didn't witness the massacre, I'm not aware of it.
I agree.Same diff.
By definition a dictator can never be benevolent. I'm sure Khan had to kill a lot of people - both on his way to the top, and to maintain his hold on power. In a very real sense, all dictators are murderers.
But the dialogue in "Space Seed" (and some fans) try to mitigate Khan's actions. I think the episode does it in order to justify Kirk's decision to give him exile instead of bringing him back for prosecution and justice (i.e., if we found Hitler on a sleeper ship in deep space, the consensus probably wouldn't be let's go easy on him and let him try to build a new society on a new planet, it would be let's bring him back to Earth to face justice).
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is...
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is...
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately.
Scotty's comment that there were "no massacres under his rule" is contradicted by Into Darkness, where it's heavily implied that Khan pursued a policy of eliminating all non-augments.
Far as I'm concerned, the "no massacres under his rule" simply meant that Khan and his ilk didn't allow word to get out. There MUST have been massacres. Khan just didn't let anyone know about them.
That's never occurred to me before, but makes a lot of sense... Even if it wasn't a typo, I'd bet that's what the writer intended, they maybe just didn't understand the planet numbering convention normally used by Trek.
Really the issue is more that they shouldn't have had Khan recognize Chekov, it's works better if Chekov only recognizes they're in deep doo-doo when he finds the Botany Bay reference as he probably would have learned about Khan and Botnay Bay when he comes aboard Enterprise, but may not have remembered the Ceti Alpha system if he wasn't there.
I'm ok with Kirk marooning Khan. In TOS, Enterprise was usually supposed to be months if not years away from Earth, and it seems obvious that keeping him on board for a long period of time probably wasn't going to end well.
In that case, shouldn't the Federation have dispatched a security squadron and transport ship posthaste to take custody and re-freeze Khan and company for shipment back to a penal institution?
Khan:" You identified me using your computer system." Why would Khan's ship's computer have information on Khan?
Under what law would they try Khan and his supermen, beyond what they did with Kirk's ship?
It would have intact historical information that the Enterprise would not.
I take it the OTHER super human dictators competing were even worse
You know what, I'm opening netflix and watching Space Seed right now. Please nobody call me for at least 45min
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