Brainstorm - Starfleet Marines (alittle different)

[Robert Bruce Scott]

The combat ready troops would presumably be stationed more on the frontier, or where there may be potential hotspots. Unfortunately for the Federation, that's... a vast territory. Gotta figure there is a bunch around Klingon and Cardassian space, as well as some ready to deal with the Romulans.

Past is precedent. Look at the distribution of U.S. military assets throughout the world. The bulk of them are inside the U.S., constantly training and rebuilding. You have to count the National Guard along with army, navy, marines and air force. Various forces are stationed within allied nations in either a logistical or "tripwire" function. American forces in Korea serve a tripwire function, while the massive US military presence in Okinawa is prepared to facilitate massive and rapid projection of force into theatre if someone is willing to test our commitment to protect our allies in South East Asia.

i don't think there is any way that humanity, having learned as much about war as we have, would use anything less than the most successful military doctrine our history has produced within a UFP context. We would keep massive numbers of people under arms, prepared specifically tor war. This would be divided into a smaller professional force and a larger force of volunteers who, for the most part, were trained as professionals and continue to train on a part-time basis to keep their communities secure.

Planetary populations would almost certainly be protected by layers of long-range, short-range and satellite defense platforms and, in a galaxy populated by many different superluminal predators, the setting up of defense forces and platforms would be among the first tasks that any new colony would engage in.

 

[evilchumlee]

Past is precedent. Look at the distribution of U.S. military assets throughout the world. The bulk of them are inside the U.S., constantly training and rebuilding. You have to count the National Guard along with army, navy, marines and air force. Various forces are stationed within allied nations in either a logistical or "tripwire" function. American forces in Korea serve a tripwire function, while the massive US military presence in Okinawa is prepared to facilitate massive and rapid projection of force into theatre if someone is willing to test our commitment to protect our allies in South East Asia.

Right, but modern, planetary based military doctrine doesn't necessarily apply to interstellar military doctrine.

Having the bulk of the Federation military assets sitting at Earth would be pointless... it could take weeks for them to get a hotspot.

I''d be more inclined to either move the green to the "base" colour instead of blue/black (on most uniforms, bar the TMP issue). Alternatively, it's the "default" colour and used in place of the "command" one, but engineers, medical and science officers still wear the usual colour.

That could work too, but I see the department colors as being tied more closely to job/role. A dedicated combat soldier would get the Green job color. This might not even be 100% limited to the Marines, just mostly widely used (Starfleet Security, for instance, may have their own dedicated troops who would get the green).

I really do like the idea of the Marines kind of having their cake and eating it too. The green is so ingrained in fanon that I want to include it, but it also feels wrong to not utilize the regular department colors as well. I really think the compromise here is that there is a fourth job color, just that most Starfleet departments don't have that job available.

Gold is regular security... police, shipboard security, guards, etc. Green is soldier.

Not the case during TOS, and only sometimes the case in later shows (Toddman and Oh wear gold as a senior member of Starfleet Security but Sisko, Leyton and Benteen don't. Likewise Crusher and LaForge still wear gold as an Admiral (?) and Commodore respectively.

It is somewhat willy nilly and all over the place. Note that in this specific thread, i'm not always speaking in a strict canon sense, rather in a "what makes more sense in a slightly altered version" sense. I can kind of excuse Sisko, Leyton and Benteen. Sisko was only temporary head of Starfleet Security... he may never have actually formally transferred out of whatever department DS9 would be considered (I feel like not Exploratory Corps... possibly Fleet Support?) He was still the commander of Deep Space Nine formally, and just took up an acting role as head of Security. Leyton is never actually referred to as being involved with security, and background info had him pegged as "Chief of Starfleet Operations", which I would read as Chief of Fleet Operations. So not the C-in-C of Starfleet as a whole, but the Chief of what we would colloquially call "Starfleet". Red would be appropriate. Benteen is more of an... admin role, so it also tracks.

I do think that specifically the rarely-used "Commodore" rank may be the key there. Hitting "Admiral" rank takes one out of whatever department they were in and moves them automatically to "Command". "Commodore" or "Fleet Captain" is a flag-level position while remaining within the department. Given Starfleet's generally loose structure, it's probably much more of a formality.

I think the best way I can describe what i'm thinking is that Commodore and Fleet Captain are... Specialist Flag roles. An full Admiral is more of a Starfleet Command generalist. They may command over a particular department, but their specific commands may be a bit more fluid, moving as needed. A Commodore or Fleet Captain are flag level, but remain fixed to a particular department and assignment. For example, if La Forge wanted to continue to run the fleet museum, he wouldn't accept a promotion to Rear Admiral, which would see him assigned where needed, not necessarily where he wanted to be. Same with Oh... Oh specifically needed to be Starfleet Security, so Commodore was the right call. Fleet Captain would be an even more rare rank, used when there's a need for a flag officer but with the intent to remain in the same division.

I think those ranks may not always be an option. Picard couldn't be like "Oh awesome, i'll be Fleet Captain and stay in Exploratory Corps". It's much more situation-based, and may be more used as the chief of a smaller sub-department.

Such as?

I apologize I didn't mean that exactly as worded. I meant Engineering as just a random example, like "Somebody is say, clearly Engineering".

I also admit this may not actually be the case, given some examples. Spitballing ideas out there. I am probably mixing up canon with my own stand in expectations... I was looking at something like Pressman and thinking "He's in Red, but he's Intelligence!"... having never actually established a specific color for Intelligence in canon, so... Red works.

I think alot, myself included, tend to oversimplify it to "Red = Command, Gold = Security/Engineering, Blue = Science" and it's like, mostly accurate but there's other things that end up in those.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

Right, but modern, planetary based military doctrine doesn't necessarily apply to interstellar military doctrine.... Having the bulk of the Federation military assets sitting at Earth would be pointless... it could take weeks for them to get a hotspot.

The 10th Mountain Division or 3rd Corps Artillery take weeks to move into theater. A full scale ramp-up takes nearly a month. That's part of the reason some divisions are stationed nearby in Germany and Japan. Tripwire units respond first and are at highest risk, backed up by units closer in theater. It might take months to get the regulars in place and more months if the National Guard has to be brought in.

 

[evilchumlee]

The 10th Mountain Division or 3rd Corps Artillery take weeks to move into theater. A full scale ramp-up takes nearly a month. That's part of the reason some divisions are stationed nearby in Germany and Japan. Tripwire units respond first and are at highest risk, backed up by units closer in theater. It might take months to get the regulars in place and more months if the National Guard has to be brought in.

Right but at that point, we're talking about Army roles, which is beyond the scope of Marines. They could function in that role if necessary, but that's the intended role.

If there's going to be a long term conflict, local forces are going to do the heavy lifting or in the worst case, Starfleet just repurposes whoever they can to fill the role.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

Right but at that point, we're talking about Army roles, which is beyond the scope of Marines. They could function in that role if necessary, but that's the intended role.

Each branch of the service has its primary mission. The Marines come to the rescue - first in, last out. The Army comes to stay. I don't think you can get a good idea of how Marines operate in the UFP / Trek-Verse without considering the entire force structure.

 

[evilchumlee]

Each branch of the service has its primary mission. The Marines come to the rescue - first in, last out. The Army comes to stay. I don't think you can get a good idea of how Marines operate in the UFP / Trek-Verse without considering the entire force structure.

That was the point though... I understand all of that.

We're talking about Marines here.

There is no Army... at least, not not directly under Starfleet.

 

[valkyrie013]

I doubt that the Federation would have a standing Army, There not occupying planets, doing riot control, etc.
There is only StarFleet. The responsibility of individual planets is up to the there planetary governments. Now they could probably ask starfleet for temporary help, and that may be a job for the Marines in the short term, like rescue hostages, reverse a coup, but realistically most Federation planets would be peaceful, with a one world government. Now sure there would still be anarchists, anti federation types on all planets, even Vulcan has there Extreme Logicists types.

The Federation wouldn't Occupy a member planet, maybe Starfleet assistance.

 

[evilchumlee]

I doubt that the Federation would have a standing Army, There not occupying planets, doing riot control, etc.
There is only StarFleet. The responsibility of individual planets is up to the there planetary governments.

That's my exact thinking.

Starfleet only even has Marines in the first place due to them being vast and spread across the Federation, as well as being under direct Federation authority... Starfleet has a reach that member worlds might not have, so they have a relatively small force to assist.

Member worlds handle larger military matters that require boots on the ground. Starfleet largely takes over the role of space warfare.

This is a good chunk of the reason why i've decided on there being a NATO-like structure within the Federation as well, completely and totally unaffiliated with Starfleet. Member worlds maintain their own military forces, but in times of war, there is an apparatus to facilitate cooperation between allies. Starfleet is still going to be involved because it's such a gargantuan organization, and especially in times of war they need every hand they can get.

The role of Starfleet Marines would not be focused on prolonged warfare. They're just a specially trained force of ground combat soldiers that Starfleet has its disposal for situations that their regular security officers aren't trained to handle.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

In the Hunter/Beagle trekverse, Star Fleet is only Star Fleet and is the only service that is unified throughout UEG. All other military services exist for the protection of the colony or nation-state in which they are raised and maintained. But these also all respond to the needs of UEG and can be mobilized. Typically, that is the function of only a few specialized services, such as select marine units, including the 54th Division of the United States Marines - the Space Hounds, who wear a beagle patch on their uniforms. i imagine the SAS and a few other select services would also perform expeditionary services.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Is there any relevance to the suggestion in canon that the detachment on AR-558 (which was probably a SEF Ranger Detachment of our purposes, given its intel mission) is flagged for missions of up to ninety days based on organic capacity and actually managed somewhere around a hundred-and-forty days in total (though with almost total losses by the end), whereas a modern MEF -- a reinforced division to a mid-size corps depending on attached units. -- is typically rated for only sixty days organically without resupply?

 

[evilchumlee]

In the Hunter/Beagle trekverse, Star Fleet is only Star Fleet and is the only service that is unified throughout UEG. All other military services exist for the protection of the colony or nation-state in which they are raised and maintained. But these also all respond to the needs of UEG and can be mobilized. Typically, that is the function of only a few specialized services, such as select marine units, including the 54th Division of the United States Marines - the Space Hounds, who wear a beagle patch on their uniforms. i imagine the SAS and a few other select services would also perform expeditionary services.

Your stuff is an interesting perspective in that's essentially the polar opposite of what i'm going for here. Nothing wrong with that at all, just brings a different perspective.

Is there any relevance to the suggestion in canon that the detachment on AR-558 (which was probably a SEF Ranger Detachment of our purposes, given its intel mission) is flagged for missions of up to ninety days based on organic capacity and actually managed somewhere around a hundred-and-forty days in total (though with almost total losses by the end), whereas a modern MEF -- a reinforced division to a mid-size corps depending on attached units. -- is typically rated for only sixty days organically without resupply?

Can probably chalk alot of that up to technology. They have replicators and crazy advanced medical technology, not to mention not using chunk of metal as ammunition. Energy is still limited, but probably stretches further and longer than modern supplies would.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Agreed.

I'm just wondering whether that would reduce the number of scenarios where a command-sized unit (ie a regiment/group/brigade or larger commanded by a general officer) might be required in the field* far more than other sources often suggest?

* They certainly exist administratively, but might not be a combat force for the most part, particularly outside of wartime.

 

[Robert Bruce Scott]

Your stuff is an interesting perspective in that's essentially the polar opposite of what i'm going for here. Nothing wrong with that at all, just brings a different perspective.

That's the fun of infinite Trek-fan-verses. Thanks!! rbs

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Alternatively if you don't want to abandon the idea of at least unit-level integration in the field then there are a couple of ways to incorporate detachments around the size of the one at AR-558 if you apply the relative proportions of the standard MEF command to the smaller MEU (~2,000 personnel, close to the top end of rapid-deployable resources):

A MEF varies tremendously in the size, but typically includes at least two smaller units that are perhaps 5-10% of the total force size each:

An Information Group (aka the Force Headquarters) which contains mission support, intel, communications, forward air controllers and until recently a military police detachment, which could in theory act as "first responders" and then fall back to command role when reinforced by Reserve Units (indeed Reserve units being added as required is the main source of variablity in MEF size IRL).

One or more attached MEUs, which are literally designed as "first responders".

Given that an MEU typically weighs in at around 2,000, a similar HQ or rapid response detachment would likely weigh in at the 100-200 range.

 

[evilchumlee]

I'm just wondering whether that would reduce the number of scenarios where a command-sized unit (ie a regiment/group/brigade or larger commanded by a general officer) might be required in the field* far more than other sources often suggest?

I think the answer is yes? I think the overall generalist nature of Starfleet would bleed into this force as well, and with the technology at their disposal, may not need something like a dedicated headquarters unit.

I think the actual manpower needs may be reduced, which in turn affects organization. I think something like a "Brigade" in this sense would be a few hundred people and while specializing in some aspect, a brigade would be largely self-sufficient.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the answer is yes? I think the overall generalist nature of Starfleet would bleed into this force as well, and with the technology at their disposal, may not need something like a dedicated headquarters unit.

My option 1 (which also draws on doctorine from both the Green Berets and MARSOC) probably fits best of the two then:

A small, specialist unit of "subject matter experts" lead by a relatively senior officer (the AR-558 had a full Captain, a (Lieutenant) Commander and a Lieutenant, but I'd probably drop one of those), who can usually sort out matter themselves within a relatively short period of time (<90 days), but can also act as the nucleus of a command team (either organically or as the HQ staff under a General) for follow on Reserve units if required to bring up the manpower to command level.

I think the actual manpower needs may be reduced, which in turn affects organization. I think something like a "Brigade" in this sense would be a few hundred people and while specializing in some aspect, a brigade would be largely self-sufficient.

I'd prefer to keep traditional names for the levels (brigade for instance shares an etymology with brigadier (general) so having the two at very different levels seems wrong to me). However, as I think I noted above, I'd be fine with brigades and above being primarily administrative and geographical rather than operational.

For instance, a field command might be raised with:

MDCCI Expeditionary Detachment - first responder/HQ
12th Maritime (Laikan) Unit - From an Andorian Division
4th Mobility (Go'an) Unit - From a Vulcan Division
12th Air/Space Support Squadron -- From an Antares Fleet Yards based Group.
9th (Kendra Valley) Infantry - From the Bajoran Militia.

Or any one of thousands of other combinations that fit the mission and lead time available if that makes sense?

 

[evilchumlee]

[QUOTE="Shamrock Holmes, post: 14723550, member: 16648"
I'd prefer to keep traditional names for the levels (brigade for instance shares an etymology with brigadier (general) so having the two at very different levels seems wrong to me). However, as I think I noted above, I'd be fine with brigades and above being primarily administrative and geographical rather than operational.[/quote]

That makes sense as well.

I just think that a multi-racial interstellar organization wouldn't just be organized exactly as a modern Earth military if for anything just to the difference in technology, not even taking into account the traditions of the other member worlds militaries.

I really do think something like an HQ unit would be much smaller than we have today.

You're issue with nomenclature is partly why I was considering creating an entirely new structure altogether, specifically to avoid direct comparisons to modern organization. I was batting around using a bit less traditional-to-modern nomenclature.

For instance, a field command might be raised with:

MDCCI Expeditionary Detachment - first responder/HQ
12th Maritime (Laikan) Unit - From an Andorian Division
4th Mobility (Go'an) Unit - From a Vulcan Division
12th Air/Space Support Squadron -- From an Antares Fleet Yards based Group.
9th (Kendra Valley) Infantry - From the Bajoran Militia.

Or any one of thousands of other combinations that fit the mission and lead time available if that makes sense?

I don't hate that.

I do think that this organization would need to be quite flexible and adaptable with its command. I could see geography playing a more important role in recruitment and training... a division based out of Bajor Sector will primarily be... Bajoran, mostly just due to space being big. It's more efficient to just recruit and raise a local force under Starfleet, reinforced as needed. If one sector starts becoming a hotspot, units can be moved around easily enough, but it takes time.

I see the lions share of the Expeditionary Force being stationed along the frontiers of the Federation. They're not helping much sitting on a base on Earth. They're out on the fringes. Most anything that would conceivably happen to a "core" world can be dealt with by local forces or Starfleet ships.

Actually invading an established world would be difficult, as per Picard Season 3. At the very least by that time, Earth very much as a planetary shield that appears to be largely impenetrable, controlled from Spacedock. And Spacedock was able to take an absolute beating before it finally went down.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I really do think something like an HQ unit would be much smaller than we have today.

That depends what you mean by "HQ unit".

US Army have "headquarters" from the element-level upwards for their detachments, and most conventional sub-units lead by O2s and above have some sort of staff for the CO.

Generally, the size scales with the typical or default size of the unit or command with the HQ being a level or two below in size (companies have section/squads, battalions and regiments have companies, brigades have battalions et al).

You're issue with nomenclature is partly why I was considering creating an entirely new structure altogether, specifically to avoid direct comparisons to modern organization. I was batting around using a bit less traditional-to-modern nomenclature.

You're not entirely which is why I think it makes sense to use fairly common/generic terms rather than military specific ones (though there is naturally some overlap).
From smallest to largest commonly used terms:

Team = lead by an NCO, usually assigned a specific task within their speciality. Equivalent of a fireteam.
Section = lead by a junior officer, may be assigned a specific task within their speciality or work outside their speciality with additional personnel attached for the duration to assist with this. Equivalent of a (sub-)sub-unit.
Detachment = lead by a mid-grade officer, may be assigned a specific task within their speciality or work outside their speciality with additional personnel attached for the duration to assist with this. Typical component deployed on routine support missions. Equivalent of a company or specialist battalion.
Unit = lead by a field grade officer, typically includes a variety of sub-units for flexible operations with different mission profiles, but specialist units may be drawn from a variety of sources if a full formation or command it is required in the field. Equivalent of a composite battalion, regiment or (battle)group.
Formation = Typically found as an administrative level under a general officer on planets and occasionally starbases in the certain "hotspots" and will always contain both specialist and general duties components of varying sizes. Equivalent of a brigade, division or corps.
Command = Generally found as an administrative level under a general officer on member planets (with all generalist and at least plurality of specialist personnel drawn from that planet/system). Not field-deployed except during wartime and rarely if ever forward-deployed in its entirety without the approval of the member planet government and/or Starfleet Command. Equivalent of field army, army group/front, combatant command/regional theater.

I do think that this organization would need to be quite flexible and adaptable with its command. I could see geography playing a more important role in recruitment and training... a division based out of Bajor Sector will primarily be... Bajoran, mostly just due to space being big.

As noted above, the administrative division or formation based on Bajor would likely be mostly Bajoran and would likely contribute at least some of the manpower and assets for any Starfleet operation within their sector, however at least some sources suggest that Starbase 375, the Antares Fleet Yards and potentially at least a couple of Federation colony worlds who could all commit resources to any effort, particularly if it requires specialisms that (former) Bajoran Militia components don't have (they don't seem like they'd have much expertise in maritime or cold weather ops for instance).

 

[evilchumlee]

That depends what you mean by "HQ unit".

US Army have "headquarters" from the element-level upwards for their detachments, and most conventional sub-units lead by O2s and above have some sort of staff for the CO.

Generally, the size scales with the typical or default size of the unit or command with the HQ being a level or two below in size (companies have section/squads, battalions and regiments have companies, brigades have battalions et al).

I mean that I don't think there's many situations at all that would necessitate an HQ of hundreds of people. In context of what we have here, "HQ" would be... a few officers to the point that i'm not even sure we actually require a specific label for the org chart.

You're not entirely which is why I think it makes sense to use fairly common/generic terms rather than military specific ones (though there is naturally some overlap).
From smallest to largest commonly used terms:[/quote]

That is more what I was leaning on. I think some military specific ones are fine too... with the caveat that they don't need to mean the exact same thing in the 2370's as they do in the 2020's. We don't need to the use the US Marines definition of "Brigade", or at the very least, not using any specific 2024-numbers for it. In this context, "Brigade" is just a subdivision of organization... exactly WHAT that is can be anything.

I liked the idea of using "Cohort" somewhere along the line, as being a word with origins in military but not really associated with any specific, modern military nomenclature.

I do like "Brigade" still, as while there is a distinct military definition... there is also a more generic definition, referring to an organization with a specific purpose that uses a military-type structure. "Fire Brigades" are not actually a collection of Fire Battalions commanded by a Brigadier General...

at least a couple of Federation colony worlds who could all commit resources to any effort, particularly if it requires specialisms that (former) Bajoran Militia components don't have (they don't seem like they'd have much expertise in maritime or cold weather ops for instance).

I think yes, no, but also yes.

Local forces still very much exist, both in canon and especially for the purposes of this. I don't think we need to specify former Bajoran Militia... unless they have reorganized under a more stable government and have dropped their "militia" title. Otherwise, yes... this Marine force would certainly take reinforcement from local forces, i.e. the Bajoran Militia, but would also just try to recruit locally into the specific Starfleet force from the Bajoran population.

Realistically, the heavy lifting of any ground defense of Bajor or its territory would be on Bajor itself and coordination with other member worlds military forces. The Starfleet Marines would be there to act potentially more quickly, both operational and political-wise, but really be a short term solution.

On the political front, it may be somewhat splitting hairs but a Starfleet force already has authorization to act and some forces available. Trying to get say, Andorian support for a Bajoran operation would HAPPEN, but there's a political layer it has to get through to move through the Federation Council. Especially in a defensive situation, it really shouldn't be a big deal, but any extra layer of oversight will produce some amount of delay. Starfleet can act a bit more decisively in the name of the Federation.

On the topic of the Bajoran Militia and a small tangent, I doubt they have a ton of specialism beyond insurgency tactics. They haven't had a formal, professional military for over half a century, and i'm absolutely certain that the Cardassians would have purged anyone with the institutional knowledge to get one quickly back up and running. The Bajoran Militia really is a fairly rag tag group of revolutionaries-turned-military.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That is more what I was leaning on. I think some military specific ones are fine too... with the caveat that they don't need to mean the exact same thing in the 2370's as they do in the 2020's. We don't need to the use the US Marines definition of "Brigade", or at the very least, not using any specific 2024-numbers for it. In this context, "Brigade" is just a subdivision of organization... exactly WHAT that is can be anything.

A Marine Expeditionary Brigade is a USMC specific term (and actually refers to a force that otherwise probably be considered a composite regiment), but they otherwise generally use the term in the same way as other Anglophone armed forces (and probably others but I lack decent info on that) have used for it for most of the last 100 to 150 years at least.

I liked the idea of using "Cohort" somewhere along the line, as being a word with origins in military but not really associated with any specific, modern military nomenclature.

Based on the main historical use, cohorts are considered directly equivalent of a battalion, but could potentially be expanded to regimental levels depending on the size of subordinate detachments, so would replace Unit in my generic schema.

I do like "Brigade" still, as while there is a distinct military definition... there is also a more generic definition, referring to an organization with a specific purpose that uses a military-type structure. "Fire Brigades" are not actually a collection of Fire Battalions commanded by a Brigadier General...

The title might change, but the rank is broadly equivalent and often visually similar in several areas, at least where "Brigade" isn't used as the term for the entire organisation (as was historically common in Britain and the Commonwealth) for fire/rescue and first aid/ambulance organisations.

Given the ambiguity of the size and type of organisation that it refers to, I'd just as soon not bother for formations under Starfleet control (though it could still be used on a local level for the parent units).

Local forces still very much exist, both in canon and especially for the purposes of this. I don't think we need to specify former Bajoran Militia...

Actually, canon suggests that the Militia in its current form would be disbanded (though the First Splinter!Militia maintaining ground forces but losing its extra-planetary capable ships and some of their personnel seems more in line with your aims).

On the political front, it may be somewhat splitting hairs but a Starfleet force already has authorization to act and some forces available

Technically true, that note was informed less by operational capacity and more by the notion that the main reason why you might need a formation much less a command-sized unit would be a full-scale occupation of a planet and would have chain-of-command issues if triggered by the initial mission commander who is likely to be a "one-star" at most and probably a "four-pip".

On the topic of the Bajoran Militia and a small tangent, I doubt they have a ton of specialism beyond insurgency tactics.

There's a fair bit of overlap between special operations and insurgency in tactical terms, both tend to focus on short missions, sub-unit tactics and avoid big 'set piece' battles. Where they tend to differ is in logistics (less of an issue with replicators) and scalability.