Unseen TOS....

[Dukhat]

A case in point would be Franz Joseph’s ship designs. Would Matt Jefferies have done what FJ did if he had been tasked to come up with other Starfleet designs. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer.

Nope, I don't think he would. I think Jeffries would have considered the 'Starship Class' as the pinnacle of Starfleet technology, and 'lesser' vessels would be designed based on their function, and would look little like a saucer and secondary hull. The ships might have nacelles, but that would be the only similar characteristic. He wouldn't be a 'kitbasher,' which was essentially what FJ did.

 

[blssdwlf]

I'll just leave this here...

LOL, I see the corn flakes as asteroids though!

 

[publiusr]

…the background about the Klingons being poor and deprived

You had a very early idea about a carrier (long before FJ) where you suggested the Federation and Klingon ships would start to resemble each other.

As much as love the FJ concepts…I wonder if there is any fanzine ship art that was not “contaminated” so to speak.

A cute idea for a small ship was the single-nacelle design seen on the cardboard bridge-screen inserts for the old Mego bridge play set.

https://www.megomuseum.com/startrek/enterprise.html

What defines TOS might be as simple as woodworking.

You can make interesting shapes paring things down for Trek…where Star Wars had even simpler shapes that were greebled up.

 

[aridas sofia]

“You had a very early idea about a carrier (long before FJ) where you suggested the Federation and Klingon ships would start to resemble each other.”

Not sure what that was. The only thing I can think of was my assertion that the “linear” TMP nacelles were appropriated technology from Klingon ships captured during the Four Years War.

 

[Warped9]

An idea.



My thinking is trying to keep things relatively simple yet interesting also relatively simple to construct. A miniature like this could be possibly about 1-2 feet long.

In “Errand Of Mercy” we don’t have much time for this ship to appear on screen. It’s possible we could see a glimpse of it while it’s firing at the Enterprise and possibly another glimpse on the main viewscreen. Later, if the miniature were reused, it could be seen a bit more clearly in “Friday’s Child” as it attempts to block the Enterprise’s return to the planet. When Chekov identifies it as a Klingon warship we might catch a quick glimpse of a schematic of the ship on one of the bridge’s science viewscreens.

 

[publiusr]

That is very good.

 

[Bernard Guignard]

Nice it looks fast

 

[caveat_imperator]

I like how you have that boxy structure on top like the D-7 has. Sometimes I think that could be the Klingon warp drive while the nacelles are weapons pods, since from what I remember energy bolts have been shown firing from those nacelles.

 

[STEPhon IT]

An idea.



My thinking is trying to keep things relatively simple yet interesting also relatively simple to construct. A miniature like this could be possibly about 1-2 feet long.

In “Errand Of Mercy” we don’t have much time for this ship to appear on screen. It’s possible we could see a glimpse of it while it’s firing at the Enterprise and possibly another glimpse on the main viewscreen. Later, if the miniature were reused, it could be seen a bit more clearly in “Friday’s Child” as it attempts to block the Enterprise’s return to the planet. When Chekov identifies it as a Klingon warship we might catch a quick glimpse of a schematic of the ship on one of the bridge’s science viewscreens.

I like the design, but why can't it resemble a Klingon design?

 

[Warped9]

I like the design, but why can't it resemble a Klingon design?

At this point in the series no one knows what a Klingon design is. The D7 hasn’t even been designed yet by Matt Jefferies—thats still near two years away. And none of the subsequent films and series have happened yet as they are years to decades in the future.

The “new” Klingon look was established basically during the film era, and that hasn’t happened yet in the timeline of this project. Certainly Jefferies’ D7 design has only some semblance to what would come later.

 

[ashleytinger]

I don't know, I think this would not look out of place next to a D-7 at all

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know, I think this would not look out of place next to a D-7 at all

Indeed. The "wing" shape is evocative enough to create a similar but not identical design language.

 

[Warped9]

The challenge here is not to be tied too strongly to what will or might come later.

We “know” what the D7 will look like, but in the timeline of this project that hasn’t been revealed yet. But we also know something of Jefferies’ design language and the TOS aesthetic. What if Jefferies, or Wah Chang, tried out some ideas that would eventually lead to the eventual D7 design?

The popular idea of what Klingon design is started in the film era. TMP took the distinct and graceful look of the D7 and greebled the shit out of it as well as painted it dark compared to the wraith like appearance of the D7. Hell, even TOS-R tried to make the D7 look more like later Klingon designs rather than respect Jefferies’ original intent. But the new look was cemented with the Klingon BoP introduced in TSFS. From thereon Klingon ships were dark, hard-edged and heavily greebled. And whenever I see a post TOS Klingon design I hear a distinct metallic clanking sound in my imagination.

 

[publiusr]

The werewolf Klingons are into Death Metal.

Your design points the way to D-7...even has those vent-strips on the wing like the early AMTs

 

[Warped9]

The werewolf Klingons are into Death Metal.

Your design points the way to D-7...even has those vent-strips on the wing like the early AMTs

Thanks. Thats my hope—to point toward the D7 without mimicking it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

At this point in the series no one knows what a Klingon design is. The D7 hasn’t even been designed yet by Matt Jefferies—thats still near two years away. And none of the subsequent films and series have happened yet as they are years to decades in the future.

The “new” Klingon look was established basically during the film era, and that hasn’t happened yet in the timeline of this project. Certainly Jefferies’ D7 design has only some semblance to what would come later.

It appears your design resembles a bird which reminds me of the Klingon Bird of Prey from Star Trek III which was originally designed for Romulans. I guess your thought is it would be more in that vein even when it wasn't thought that a Prey Mantis design was identifiable 2 years later? Still think there's some retroactive thinking in your design but it is nice but not Klingon.

 

[Warped9]

I wasn’t thinking of a “bird of prey” at all. And funnily enough I really don’t see the manta ray in Jefferies’ D7 design although I can’t dispute thats where he claims he got the idea from.

In TOS the “bird of prey” idea is established as Romulan with the nacelle supports swept forward, but more because theres a huge “bird of prey” painted on the hull. The Klingon version from TSFS actually tries to physically evoke a bird. The painted on wings is just extra detailing. And when you think about it the BoP from TSFS makes more sense as Klingon design because it looks more akin to the D7 than to the TOS Romulan design from “Balance Of Terror.” Strikes me things got all mixed up during the film era.

Almost any aircraft design can be said to evoke a bird because of the immediate association of a vehicle with extended wings resembles a bird wth extended wings in flight. It’s understandable a spaceship design with similar design as an aircraft can evoke the same avian image. But candidly some of my designs are really a massaging of the classic sci-fi rocketship look: a pontoon hull with swept fins for atmospheric re-entry. And the sci-fi rocketship was really a thinly veiled variation of the old WW2 German V2 rockets used to terrorize London. I am just playing with shapes to find something that “fits” into a general idea I’m aiming for. And because we know what Jefferies’ later Klingon design will be I am trying for something that looks of similar thinking that connects with the D7, but without obviously mimicking the D7. Believe it or not, but I actually started this idea with more of a triangular wedge shape roughly like a Star Wars star destroyer and it morphed into the pic I posted above upthread.

My intent, here, is to remain faithful to the mindset of those working on TOS whereas later Trek creators were trying to “update” the look of Trek hardware from the then current perspectives of their times and all the additional influences they were exposed to since the 1960s. This is where my project differs from many, if not most, other people’s approach to designing TOS era hardware. Most others are trying to fit TOS designs into the larger continuity of the overall franchise—thats certainly what TOS-R was tying to do. They are retconning ideas and influences that didn’t yet exist when TOS was made. I’m trying to avoid that. I’m trying to be authentic in trying to recreate the mindset of those when TOS was the only game in town. I’m not trying to fit into a larger narrative.

It’s challenging. Inevitably some of your ideas could resemble something that will come later in the franchise. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing if you can honestly say you came to that result as a genuine exploration of influences that were available when TOS was made.

If you look at Jefferies’ sketches as he worked out the Enterprise and D7 designs you can see kernels of ideas that could lead you in different directions, some of which evoke things we see later throughout the franchise. There is even a sketch in Jefferies’ works that evokes the Defiant in DS9 even though that show wouldn’t exist for another thirty years. So if I choose to flesh out that particular sketch of Jefferies am I ripping off the Defiant from DS9? Is it at all possible someone saw that little sketch of Jefferies and it gave them the idea for the Defiant’s design or did they come to their design independently. I have no idea.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I always got the impression that the D7 was more bat-like in design, rather than a bird. The bird thing was always supposed to be Romulan. It’s in all their ship designs and heraldry. Klingons were never shown to revere birds to that degree. Then again, all that goes out the window if the design originated from their ancient Hurq masters and they just copied it going forward (explaining why they were using the same design going back to Archer’s era and before). All just speculation though…

 

[Warped9]

^^ This is why I said TSFS messed everything up. Apparently the villains of TSFS were initially supposed to be Romulans, but somewhere along they line they decided to use the Klingons instead yet still kept all the references that were attributed to Romulans in TOS: a neutral zone, a bird of prey ship with cloaking device and Romulans not taking prisoners was now attributed to Klingons. And this was perpetuated forward throughout the franchise.

Nonetheless, as I said before, I’m not interested in rationalizing whatever I design within the broader context and supposed backstory woven over the next five decades of the franchise. To me none of that matters and I’m trying to operate within the confines of 1965-69 and what was known then. And back then there was very very little backstory to the Klingons. Indeed when “Errand Of Mercy” was made the idea of the Klingons being semi-recurring villains was likely remote. And that fits with the show’s premise of the Enterprise exploring predominantly unknown territory rather than regularly patrolling an enemy border.

I also know very well how I am going about this will strike many fans as bizarre and maybe even incomprehensible:: ignoring fifty years of franchise and refusing to retcon later material back into TOS. And thats probably why someone like me would never be chosen as a show runner for any Trek production. I can tell you that if I had been calling the shots on a show like ENT or SNW or even STC things would have been very different.

 

[BK613]

In fairness to TSFS, TWOK did it first. Cribbed Gamma Hydra and the Neutral Zone (sans the Romulan label) from 'The Deadly Years', gave us Klingons inside said Neutral Zone, and of course Kirk's "Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners."
TSFS just leaned into what was done in the previous movie.