Spoilers AHSOKA series [Spoiler Discussion]

[Xerxes82]

Seriously, not in the text? Have we been watching the same show? I'll stick to stuff from just this series, and not include her Mandalorian S2 appearance.

"My master never finished my training. I walked away from him. The same way I walked away from Sabine." Equating her issues with Anakin to her issues with Sabine. Also shows that she at least had unresolved issues about being Sabine's teacher.

The entire discussion with Hera at the factory in the second episode. About being ready to be a master or an apprentice. About the importance of not just being ready, but knowing you are ready.

Sabine's discussion with Huyang about how Ahsoka didn't seem to want her back. Why do we think that was?

A line of dialogue between Huyang and Ahsoka, nominally about Sabine. But equally true for Ahsoka herself. "I don't need her to be a Jedi. I just need her to be herself."

The soldier/warrior vs peacekeeper stuff was explicit in this very episode. Also last week, when Baylan accused her of being nothing but death and destruction, as was her master before her.

And the duality of experiencing Anakin as both her mentor whom she looked up to/learned from and as Vader, whose reputation need not be discussed for being blindingly obvious. That she has understandably complex emotions where he is concerned shouldn't need to be stated outright.

Combine this with the obvious and noticeable personality shift upon her reawakening? Not to mention the wardrobe choice?

I'm seeing a lot of text here.

 

[Captrek]

But you shouldn't need someone on the internet to explain it to you. It should be pretty clear.

Not a fan of David Lynch I take it? I always need someone on the internet to explain it to me.

I always believed that Hayden Christensen given the right material is a good actor. He was brilliant here as Anakin and Vader. I'd really like to see more of this mature Anakin if it were possible.

I thought he came across much better here than in AOTC or ROTS.

 

[Aragorn]

I always believed that Hayden Christensen given the right material is a good actor. He was brilliant here as Anakin and Vader. I'd really like to see more of this mature Anakin if it were possible.

Shattered Glass showed he could act. But if your movies aren't good and/or profitable, you get less offers. It also doesn't help that his two biggest movies everyone saw him in had an absentee director.

 

[Crewman6]

Not a fan of David Lynch I take it? I always need someone on the internet to explain it to me.

Heh. But David Lynch turned down Star Wars. Star Wars is supposed to be comprehensible.

 

[Crewman6]

"My master never finished my training. I walked away from him. The same way I walked away from Sabine." Equating her issues with Anakin to her issues with Sabine. Also shows that she at least had unresolved issues about being Sabine's teacher.

Yes, we know there were issues between her and Sabine, but they aren't articulated well at all. It just seems like...personality conflict. But nothing at the heart of Ahsoka's personality (barely sketched in as it is) that seems to be causing the rift. Ahsoka seems a little petty towards Sabine and crappy, but we don't know the source of it nor do we know any specifics about what drove them apart.

The entire discussion with Hera at the factory in the second episode. About being ready to be a master or an apprentice. About the importance of not just being ready, but knowing you are ready.

Uh, okay. But so? Again, none of this connects at all to the scenes with Anakin.

Sabine's discussion with Huyang about how Ahsoka didn't seem to want her back. Why do we think that was?

Again, we don't know. We are given no specific information about their conflict.

A line of dialogue between Huyang and Ahsoka, nominally about Sabine. But equally true for Ahsoka herself. "I don't need her to be a Jedi. I just need her to be herself."

Okay, but this is a fairly generic platitude that again isn't connected to anything.

The soldier/warrior vs peacekeeper stuff was explicit in this very episode. Also last week, when Baylan accused her of being nothing but death and destruction, as was her master before her.

Yes, it is. But at any point do we get the sense that Ahsoka sees herself as more warrior than Jedi? That she worries about her own violent legacy or her participation in the war? Is she at all haunted by her past or scarred or conflicted by it? Nope. Baylan's comment comes out of nowhere.

And the duality of experiencing Anakin as both her mentor whom she looked up to/learned from and as Vader, whose reputation need not be discussed for being blindingly obvious. That she has understandably complex emotions where he is concerned shouldn't need to be stated outright.

Sure, she can obviously have conflicted emotions about Anakin, but how has she internalized that? How has that affected her state of mind or her worldview? It's not at all clear. Does she personally feel that, since she was trained by Darth Vader, she's in danger of following in his footsteps? That could be an interesting angle, but the show certainly never suggests that in any way.

Combine this with the obvious and noticeable personality shift upon her reawakening? Not to mention the wardrobe choice?

Sure, she has had a bit of a transformation. My argument is that it isn't earned and that the individual pieces just aren't connecting.

You're listing a bunch of isolated fragments that aren't really painting a consistent picture of any kind of issues that Ahsoka has that she needs to overcome. You're kind of grasping here.

The only real issue Ahsoka seems to have in the first several episodes is her conflict with Sabine. Which seems more just a personality clash than anything else. Yeah, Ahsoka is kind of a jerk at first, but then agrees to train her again and all is well.

Does Ahsoka seem, as I said, haunted by her past? Conflicted about her destiny? Troubled by her associations with Anakin? The show certainly doesn't seem to think so.

You're giving the show so much more credit than it deserves.

 

[thribs]

That girl has a history of playing younger popular aliens. She was also young Gamora in Infinity War.

 

[Tuskin38]

Does Ahsoka seem, as I said, haunted by her past? Conflicted about her destiny? Troubled by her associations with Anakin?

Yes.

The fact other people can see this and you can't. Maybe you're just not paying attention enough.

 

[KennyB]

Yes.

The fact other people can see this and you can't. Maybe you're just not paying attention enough.

Too busy taking notes about what’s “wrong” me thinks.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The visit to the Worlds Between Worlds was both what I expected and not at all what I expected). Regardless, I loved seeing Ahsoka reunited with Anakin, in the present and in the past, the good Anakin and the evil Anakin. I was especially thrilled to see glimpses of the Clone Wars, complete with a cameo of Rex as voiced by Temura Morrison! There's hope yet that we'll see Rex in the present day!

While I'm bummed out we didn't get Ashley Eckstein as young Ahsoka as I had been hoping for since the show began, I get why we didn't considering she's only two years younger than Rosario. Nonetheless, Ariana Greenblatt (of Endgame and Barbie fame!) was superb in her stead, capturing both of her naivety and her youthful ferocity. I can only hope we haven't seen the last of her as young Ahsoka.

With all of the theories that were batted around here for the past week, I'm not surprised the show went with the simplest route: Ahoska communicated with the Purrgil to follow (hopefully!) wherever Sabine, Baylan, and the rest have traveled to. I'm only bummed out that Hera, Jacen, and Chopper aren't going along for the ride. If Jacen is old enough to go with his mom on unauthorized, unsanctioned missions, then he's old enough to travel between galaxies, Hera!

Good to see that Jacen has inherited some of his father's connections with the Force and I'm curious to see where that'll lead (in this show and beyond). Considering we got a flashback with young Ahsoka, I found myself hoping that we'll also get something with Kanan, too. Not sure if there's really room for something like that in this show (especially now that Hera and Jacen are effectively out of the story for the time being), but it was a feeling I got after Hera name checked him.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yeah I really liked the young actress that got to play Ahsoka for the Clone Wars segments. And it really struck home the point that she was just a kid in the middle of all of this. She was, what, 17 when the Clone Wars ended? Although, the actress here looked a little younger than that.

Ariana Greenblatt is 16 as of last month, so presumably she was 14/15 at the time of filming those scenes.

I thought Anakin's lesson was actually pretty clear, all things considered. Ahsoka is afraid. Afraid of being a teacher, principally. A mentor. Afraid that what she learned in her own mentorship is almost purely destructive and traumatic. Afraid that she didn't learn to be a Jedi, but a soldier. And, worse, that she learned how to be that soldier from a man who proved to be among the biggest monsters in the galaxy.

As Anakin says to her, all of that is in her. It's in her, because it was in Anakin and he taught her everything she knows. How can she possibly be a Jedi, let alone a mentor, when all she knows is killing and destruction? (A callback to Baylan's line last week where he accuses her of exactly that, probably using his powers to read her the same way he did Sabine.)

Even her last lesson with Anakin turns into a lightsaber duel, for heaven's sake. And then we see her flashbacks, first one where she is full of compassion and yet a child soldier. Then one later, when she's become the warrior she fears defines her. Anakin challenges whether she even wants a padawan, because being a teacher can be such a drag. And she is confronted by the dark side version of Anakin, who is everything she fears. Not because of the threat Vader posed, but because she learned at his side and how much of that darkness came along with the lessons?

But Ahsoka is more than a soldier, in the same way that Anakin is more than a monster. Nobody is just one thing, except maybe Palpatine who is EVIL. Her choice is between life and death. Literal life and literal death, yes. But also metaphorical life and death. She can CHOOSE the path of the soldier. Or she can choose the path of the Jedi. Because that is also very much in her, as it was in Anakin. When she "defeats" Vader at the climax, her eyes turn Sith. She fears that the dark is in her as it was in her master. But she lays down her weapon. She chooses life.

And the Ahsoka who emerges from the water is changed. Ahsoka the Gray has fallen, and Ahsoka the White arrives. The character is lighter, happier, more playful. She is no longer the repressed, controlled character we've seen since her Mandalorian debut. She has seemingly reclaimed a little bit more of her Rebels persona. She is still a force to be reckoned with, but she has let go of the shadow of her past (see the episode's title, The Shadow Warrior). She is now free to be herself, and to be a better mentor to Sabine for it. Sabine is finally ready to be an apprentice, but now Ahsoka is also ready to be a teacher.

Even her final plan is very Anakin and very unlike the controlled, measured style she's been using. Bold, possibly crazy, and almost ridiculously unlikely to work. She has embraced her master for who he is, and in doing so has let her fears of what that makes her slide away.

Phenomenal analysis and I agree 100%, especially highlighting how Anakin's lesson affects her.

But you shouldn't need someone on the internet to explain it to you. It should be pretty clear.

But it wasn't. At all.

Hard disagree. The last thing I want from this show (or any show with any kind of complexity) is to spoon feed me its themes and messages. It should require the viewer to discern them through thought and analysis. It should be layered in such a manner that any explanations are open for interpretation. That's how art works.

 

[Set Harth]

That girl has a history of playing younger popular aliens. She was also young Gamora in Infinity War.

I had no idea...

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I had no idea...

She also played Sasha, the daughter of Gloria (America Ferrera), in Barbie.

 

[Set Harth]

Shattered Glass showed he could act. But if your movies aren't good and/or profitable, you get less offers. It also doesn't help that his two biggest movies everyone saw him in had an absentee director.

Well, they were at least profitable!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Leia was mentioned. Still no Luke yet though. They must be saving him for the final episode.
Pretty enjoyable episode. Reminded me of TNG's Tapestry. The flashbacks were good. It gave us a pretty clear indication how young Ashoka was during the Clone Wars. Girl did a better job portraying her than Rosario.
The clothing Ashoka wears isn't very subtle. She's Ashoka the White now. Hopefully that means she's a bit more upbeat now. Dawson finally gives her some personality.
I was thinking since the last episode that they should just ride the back of one of those whales to get to Galaxy B. Star Wars must have some very of a hyperdrive integrity field. Just expand it over the whale.

I was thinking Ahsoka leveled up, like Gandalf the White. Finally enough experience points.

 

[Reverend]

Oh great, another filler episode with nothing but fan service and terrible pacing (said nobody with an ounce of taste ever!)
Fantastic episode and the best yet by far. Those 45 minutes just flew past, and yet felt whole and complete. Doing triple duty of being a love letter to long time Clone Wars fans, being an introduction to the uninitiated AND being a comprehendible and worthwhile plot in it's own right is no small feat!
Random notes and general ramblings: -

• Wow. They really have squished down The Ghost for live action. The nose gun is practically flat, and the ramp doorway is much lower than it is in animated form. Understandable though, given that if they made it at the same scale, it would dwarf the Falcon in height alone (which is also notoriously smaller on the outside.)
• A very greedy part of me wishes they'd built more of the interior than just the cockpit and ramp. Totally unnecessary for the needs of this show and they're better off for having spent the money elsewhere, but still . . .
• Also why am I getting nostalgic for a fucking ramp? I know a lot of memorable 'Rebels' scenes took place on and around that ramp, but it's still just a ramp! Weird.
• Glad to see Huyang found Sabine's helmet. It would be weird if she just lost that for good. I mean if nothing else, the beskar is a part of her family legacy and may be the only Wren beskar left that isn't either buried under rubble and trinitite, or lost to the Imperial smelters.
• Can't help but wonder if Huyang's "but they never listen" line is purely about Ahsoka and Sabine but the Jedi as a whole. If this droid is as old as the 'Timelines' book claims, then he's seen the Order reduced to just a handful more than once before now, (and if he's still around for when Rey shows up; it'll be twice in as many generations!)
• One thing I like about the whole WBW plot, is that all the way through, it's entirely ambiguous as to whether this is really Anakin's presence, or just the personification of Ahsoka's self-doubt and fear. I suppose to the force, it's all the same thing and therefore doesn't matter overmuch. Though IMO the balance of evidence seems to favour the former.
• Case in point: "I won't fight you." "I've heard that before." For a second I thought that was a reference to Malachor, but that's not what she said then. I then realised he was talking about Luke!
• Speaking of the offspring; of course it would be Leia that's covering for them. Not just a namedrop for the sake of it either. She actually knew Ezra and would care about this mission.
• Not surprised that Jacen was the key to finding Ahsoka, but I am a little shocked that Hera was able to sense what was going on with him too. Guess Sabine isn't the only one that's taken Jedi philosophies to heart. Not that she was ever shown to be against it; indeed it was her that encouraged Kanan to take on Ezra, then later Kanan and Sabine and now Ahsoka and Sabine. I take it back; Hera has been the Jedi Whisperer this whole time!
• I'm really enjoying Carson's everyman view of all their weird Jedi stuff, and how he just doesn't question it. I'm sure he's heard enough stories from the likes of Zeb, Wedge & Mart over the years to know better than to try understanding it, and just go with it.
• I knew from the jump that this was a distinct possibility (pretty sure Filloni knew the fans would riot if he didn't do something like this), but it was still a little shocking to actually see live action Snips.
• Part of me wishes that they had Ashley dubbing her lines, but honestly that wouldn't have served the episode. Indeed it might have been distracting to the uninitiated & Clone Wars fans alike, and probably most of all: wouldn't be very fair to this young actor. She deserves to have her performance seen and heard. She's officially on Team Tano now.
• Speaking of which, she's doing an impressive job of mimicking Rosario's delivery and cadence. This is clearly still meant to be adult Ahsoka speaking, not Snips as she was. At least initially.
• Knew right from the start this wasn't Christophsis since the colouring wasn't right. For a second I thought this might be Geonosis or Teth, but the rock spires in the background and the Twi'lek partisan fighters make it pretty obvious this was the Ryloth campaign.
• Nice that they even continued the thread from that arc of Ahsoka's guilt over getting her Clones killed, though in that episode it was part of the space battle in orbit. All the ground stuff we saw in that arc was 212th. Guess this mean that the 501st did actually make it to the ground too (Side note: weird to think that Chopper and AP-5 are also out there somewhere.)
• So weird seeing practical Phase 1 armoured clone troopers (in a good way.) But now the prop nerd in me want's a closer look at how they executed the DC-17s as physical props (even in RotS, they were purely digital.)
• I guess they're just pretending like Ahsoka's tube-top outfit never existed? Good. That's not something they should have put on a 14 year old girl in the first place. Indeed I think Eckstein's insistence on this point was the reason they redesigned her outfit to something more appropriate for season 3.
• It looks like she's wearing the same outfit in the Ryloth flashback as she wore in the TotJ episode, and not her aforementioned season 3 outfit. At the time TotJ came out I suspected (as with the T-6 & S1 Anakin redesign) that this was something they had planned for the 'Ahsoka' show, so it's nice to be proven correct. They also tweaked Obi-Wan's armor design for that scene, so there's still hope for a Clone Wars Ewan cameo yet . . . with or without the mullet.
• Live action Rex! Yeah it would have been nice if it was actually Temuera in the costume, but that would have been fan service for the sake of it in this scene and would have been lost on the filthy casuals. Besides do we still have the possibility of Temuera as Oldman Rex down the line. This was still great!
• This is a good use of the volume. It's basically a dream sequence so it works in the scene's favour to take advantage of the diffuse light and low visibility. Plus it works perfectly for the setting given that Ryloth is a dry, dusty world with spare flora. Indeed that's probably why they picked this arc specifically to revisit. Geonosis would have worked too, but might have confused the uninitiated into thinking it was retconning the battle in AotC.
• The use of Vader in these sequences is very restrained and perfectly executed. It's not that Anakin is still part-evil or any asinine bollocks like that; it's always a reflection of Ahsoka's own fear and inner turmoil. She's afraid that she's the product of a cursed legacy. The old "what if my kid turns out like me?" parental anxiety, albeit filtered through the Jedi Master/Padawan dynamic.
• It makes it a bit easier to understand why Ahsoka was spooked the first time she tried training Sabine. (Also; as ever just "trying" was also part of the problem.) Sabine is already a warrior, and what she actually wants is to be a Jedi. Ahsoka (among other things) isn't sure she has anything else to offer but more warrior stuff.
• Feels like a bit of an oversight to have Rex on Mandalore without his jetpack, but I suppose this need not be the initial push into the city, but a later skirmish with Maul's forces.
• I think I would rather they had cast a slightly older actress to play Ahsoka for this second flashback/vision scene as she should be closer to 17 than 14 by this point. But I get wanting to stick with the same actress throughout.
• Also; she's still killing it. She's got the arm folding down pat. I think it even saw some replication of the Maul/Ahsoka mo-cap crouchy knee-spin choreography. Plus she's really selling the difference between her as a fresh on the battlefield Padawan, and as a three year war veteran just by her body language.
• "Is that what this is about?" With "that" of course being "that time he turned into an evil homicidal maniac for a quarter of a century". Gee Anakin, I wonder why that's giving her anxiety . . .
• So odd seeing the Skywalker sabre with a red blade (no it still doesn't mean kyber crystals are mood rings; it's just a metaphor.)
• Should have mentioned it before but Hayden is fantastic in this. Really closing the gap between his portrayal of Anakin in the movies, and Matt Lanter's performance on TCW. It's a shame that the movies were stuck with defining Anakin by his relationship to either Obi-Wan or Padme. Seeing him with Ahsoka always did a better job of showcasing what really makes him tick.
• I guess I don't have to point of the symbolism of being "reborn" in water, waking with the sunrise, seeing Ahsoka without her headdress, gauntlets, boots, and just generally stripping her down to just simple robes and a white cloak? No? Everyone on the same page and know which part of the hero's journey this is? Excellent!
• Speaking of seeing Ahsoka bare-headed for I think the first time ever other than as an infant; Togruta have ear-holes confirmed, I guess?
• I should also mention that seeing the Ishi Tib reminded me of how faithful they're being to the classic make-up/creature designs. The decidedly unconvincing Trandosians in the first season of Mando made me worried they were going to go the same route as Star Trek and try to re-invent the wheel every time instead of just respecting the original. But since Mando season 2 and BoBF they've clearly decided to hew as close to the old sculpts as possible, just executed with modern materials & animatronics.
• Hitching a ride on a whale's tongue to go find a lost family member you say? <insert appropriate Dory meme here>

Ahsoka's outfits were season 3 and season 7 accurate as well. However, and I've watched it twice and I didn't think to look either time because I was just slack-jawed over what I was seeing, but did the clone troopers during the Siege of Mandalore have Ahsoka's face markings on their helmets? They should.

Not quite. As noted above, it looks much closer to her TotJ outfit. (Only having the one sabre is also a giveaway.)

Like I said, between this, Anakin's armor redesign & total overhaul of the T-6, it seems like 'Ahsoka' was in pre-production for a while. I mean it's rare for an animated show to beat a live action TV show to screen by a whole year when they start around the same time, given that animation is usually a good two-year pipeline. They must have really wanted to take their time with this one.

I thought Anakin's lesson was actually pretty clear, all things considered. Ahsoka is afraid. Afraid of being a teacher, principally. A mentor. Afraid that what she learned in her own mentorship is almost purely destructive and traumatic. Afraid that she didn't learn to be a Jedi, but a soldier. And, worse, that she learned how to be that soldier from a man who proved to be among the biggest monsters in the galaxy.

As Anakin says to her, all of that is in her. It's in her, because it was in Anakin and he taught her everything she knows. How can she possibly be a Jedi, let alone a mentor, when all she knows is killing and destruction? (A callback to Baylan's line last week where he accuses her of exactly that, probably using his powers to read her the same way he did Sabine.)

Even her last lesson with Anakin turns into a lightsaber duel, for heaven's sake. And then we see her flashbacks, first one where she is full of compassion and yet a child soldier. Then one later, when she's become the warrior she fears defines her. Anakin challenges whether she even wants a padawan, because being a teacher can be such a drag. And she is confronted by the dark side version of Anakin, who is everything she fears. Not because of the threat Vader posed, but because she learned at his side and how much of that darkness came along with the lessons?

But Ahsoka is more than a soldier, in the same way that Anakin is more than a monster. Nobody is just one thing, except maybe Palpatine who is EVIL. Her choice is between life and death. Literal life and literal death, yes. But also metaphorical life and death. She can CHOOSE the path of the soldier. Or she can choose the path of the Jedi. Because that is also very much in her, as it was in Anakin. When she "defeats" Vader at the climax, her eyes turn Sith. She fears that the dark is in her as it was in her master. But she lays down her weapon. She chooses life.

And the Ahsoka who emerges from the water is changed. Ahsoka the Gray has fallen, and Ahsoka the White arrives. The character is lighter, happier, more playful. She is no longer the repressed, controlled character we've seen since her Mandalorian debut. She has seemingly reclaimed a little bit more of her Rebels persona. She is still a force to be reckoned with, but she has let go of the shadow of her past (see the episode's title, The Shadow Warrior). She is now free to be herself, and to be a better mentor to Sabine for it. Sabine is finally ready to be an apprentice, but now Ahsoka is also ready to be a teacher.

Even her final plan is very Anakin and very unlike the controlled, measured style she's been using. Bold, possibly crazy, and almost ridiculously unlikely to work. She has embraced her master for who he is, and in doing so has let her fears of what that makes her slide away.

All 100% spot-on analysis with just one tiny addendum; Ahsoka being bold and daring isn't just her embracing Anakin's way of doing things, it's being true to herself. She didn't earn the nickname "snips" for nothing. Yoda chose her as Anakin's padawan for a reason; they're both a lot alike in temperament. So really she's embracing who she has always been, rather than the shadow of a person she's allowed herself to become over the decades.
Either way, it's nice to see her smile more now.

Ariana Greenblatt is 17 as of last month, so presumably she was 15/16 at the time of filming those scenes.

Really? I take it back then. I totally bought her as a 13/14 year old! (Not sure if she'd take that as much of a compliment though.)

 

[Dee1891]

Shattered Glass showed he could act. But if your movies aren't good and/or profitable, you get less offers. It also doesn't help that his two biggest movies everyone saw him in had an absentee director.

One, I don't recall Lucas being an absentee director, especially for ROTS. And I can also recall some pretty good acting by Christensen in the Prequel movies, especially in certain scenes.

 

[Tuskin38]

but did the clone troopers during the Siege of Mandalore have Ahsoka's face markings on their helmets? They should.

Yes

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Really? I take it back then. I totally bought her as a 13/14 year old! (Not sure if she'd take that as much of a compliment though.)

Actually, I need to amend my post because my math failed me earlier: She was born in August 2007, so she just turned 16.

 

[Set Harth]

I don't think for a second that they're going with the asinine "Anakin's force ghosts is disfigured and half-evil" idea they batted around for TFA.This is a Filloni show, and he actually understands and respects the mythology.

The guy who says Han can't understand Chewie?

But yeah - it's as if the shifting-to-Vader Force ghost that the clickbait sites were constantly threatening us with during the rollout of the ST has finally come to pass. For my part I had more or less bought into the view of post #678, despite the fact that it being physical CW Anakin would have been very plot holey.

 

[fireproof78]

I am looking forward to the full rewatch of this series now. The mythology is decent, and it makes the Clone Wars more palatable.

I always enjoy metaphysical journeys but as one goes this is fairly predictable. Ahsoka is the best part of it.