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Rewatching TOS After SNW

He didn't "peddle women." Viewers today misunderstand "Mudd's Women" as sex trafficking because they don't remember the historical practice of wiving settlers that it was based on. The program to recruit women to move out to male-dominated Western frontier settlements was the exact opposite of sex trafficking; the goal was to make the communities more wholesome and civilized by encouraging reputable women from Eastern cities to voluntarily migrate to the West, take community-building roles like schoolteachers and seamstresses and the like, and hopefully allow the formation of lasting marital bonds so men wouldn't have to turn to brothels as much.

Certainly Harry's con game was corrupting the intent of a settler-wiving program, but the episode made it clear that Eve, Ruth, and Magda were willing partners in the con. They (or at least Ruth and Magda) were portrayed as golddiggers, women using their sexual wiles to win rich husbands. In that paradigm, it's the husbands who are presumed to be the victims, manipulated by women who pretend to love them but just want their wealth. Perhaps that's another aspect that's hard to recognize given cultural shifts since the 1960s.

And you really can't find con artists charming? I guess there must be a whole genre of fiction you don't like -- The Sting, Ocean's Eleven, the Mission: Impossible TV series, The A-Team, Remington Steele, White Collar, Leverage, etc. Heck, Han Solo and Lando Calrissian are con artists. The Wizard of Oz was a con artist. Angel Martin from The Rockford Files, Booster Gold and John Constantine from DC Comics, Lupin the Third, Quark from DS9, Beckett Mariner from Lower Decks, Vala from Stargate SG-1, Captain Jack from Doctor Who. Heck, the Doctor is a con artist a lot of the time -- psychic paper, false identities, etc.




How are you defining those words? Violence is doing harm. Killing is causing the cessation of life. The definitions are not conditional on the state of mind behind the actions. You're not any less hurt or dead if the person who did it to you felt bad about it.

I know con artists are by nature 'charming', or at least give that facade. I just don't find Harry Mudd charming.

And a lot of those examples you mention, I'm not really into. Except for THE A-TEAM, I never was into any of those shows. Quark, Vala, Mariner, Captain Jack Harkness, The Doctor... those ones, I do like. But all of those examples, including THE A-TEAM, are doing a con to serve a greater good or were selfish and are on a redemption path by using that skill set. (With the exception of Quark, but there are lines even he won't cross.)

There was nothing redemptive about Harry Mudd. So no, I don't find him charming or loveable.

Regarding "MUDD'S WOMEN"... I know that wiving settlers was a thing done in the past, and the reasons for it. Except for Eve, there was nothing wholesome about what they were doing. Ruth and Magda were golddiggers, and Mudd was just as bad. Being the 'charming' conman he was, you really think they went along completely of their own volition? He very likely, given what we know of him, laid the charm on so thick that he likely convinced the women it was their idea. And as you correctly stated, Mudd did corrupt the intent, which is why I call him a flesh peddler.

Regarding M'Benga... again (since you seem to love saying that), he was in a war. He did things he hated. He was traumatized by it. I know you are going by a strict dictionary definition of the term 'violent killer', but let's say someone broke into a home and attacked the homeowner with a gun/knife/whatever. In the ensuing struggle, the homeowner kills the intruder. Are you saying that makes the homeowner a 'violent killer', simply because that person was defending their life? Or how about a woman getting attacked by a rapist, and she ends up killing him with his own knife/gun/whatever in the fight. She's a 'violent killer' because she stopped him from raping and possibly killing her?

So no, I don't think M'Benga is a violent killer.
 
I know con artists are by nature 'charming', or at least give that facade. I just don't find Harry Mudd charming.

That's your personal choice, but you must agree that there is objectively an obvious difference between a character who lies and cheats and a character who goes on killing sprees without remorse. You don't have to have a personal preference to recognize that a difference factually exists.


Regarding "MUDD'S WOMEN"... I know that wiving settlers was a thing done in the past, and the reasons for it. Except for Eve, there was nothing wholesome about what they were doing.

But it's still on a vastly different level of criminality from a killing spree.


So no, I don't think M'Benga is a violent killer.

It's bizarre how narrowly you're choosing to define the words. I did not mean it the way you're selectively misreading it. I just mean that the writers of "A Private Little War" and "That Which Survives" probably never imagined that the character would be reinterpreted as a Special Forces-type black-ops soldier haunted by the physically violent and deadly acts he committed in the war -- any more than Stephen Kandel ever imagined that Harry Mudd would be reinterpreted as someone who'd storm through a ship casually killing people by the dozens.
 
That's your personal choice, but you must agree that there is objectively an obvious difference between a character who lies and cheats and a character who goes on killing sprees without remorse. You don't have to have a personal preference to recognize that a difference factually exists.




But it's still on a vastly different level of criminality from a killing spree.




It's bizarre how narrowly you're choosing to define the words. I did not mean it the way you're selectively misreading it. I just mean that the writers of "A Private Little War" and "That Which Survives" probably never imagined that the character would be reinterpreted as a Special Forces-type black-ops soldier haunted by the physically violent and deadly acts he committed in the war -- any more than Stephen Kandel ever imagined that Harry Mudd would be reinterpreted as someone who'd storm through a ship casually killing people by the dozens.

Yes, there is a difference between the two types of criminals you are talking about. I never disputed that.

And of course those original writers didn't expect Mudd or M'Benga to be different now than in TOS. We're talking over half a century of time between TOS and DISCO/SNW. Just as whatever is rebooted or remade in 50 years time, none of the writers today are going to expect whatever choices future writers are going to make with characters. What's your point?

Things fit as far as what is known... Mudd was always a criminal, and M'Benga was completely unknown except that he was a doctor who interned on Vulcan. Liberties are going to be taken when you're talking about characters not as fleshed out as Kirk, Spock, etc. The pieces fit, so I don't see a problem.

And how is it bizarre to ask you, using your own definition, those questions about a 'violent killer'? I'm not 'selectively misreading it', I'm using examples to ask questions based on your post of defining a 'violent killer', which is correct as far as the dictionary goes, but it's not so black and white outside a dictionary.

You know, we'll just have to agree to disagree on Mudd and M'Benga because you are not going to give an inch, and I'm not budging.

Moving on.
 
But when it totally subverts the intents of the original creators it becomes less clever and more disrespectful.
Yes it can cross the line to disrespectful. I thought that the way NuTrek treated Chapel was disrespectful to the character, to Majel, and to women in general.

I don't think SNW has been disrespectful to Chapel. She's young, recovering from the trauma of a war, and trying to forge a career. TOS was probably more disrespectful for forgetting that she was a scientist.

I don't think SNW is being disrespectful to Spock. Everything he's going through here is reminiscent of what he went through with Leila Kalomi. Variations on a theme but still consistent with his characterisation as a younger, more emotional man.

Disrespectful to the original writers intent for Chapel? I'm not quite sure they had much intent.

Disrespectful to the original writers of Spock? Not really, as quite in keeping with some other TOS storylines with different characters.
 
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That's just their appearance. I'm talking about the writing, the concept. I'm talking about whether there's enough substance in the portrayal of the species to sustain them as ongoing villains. If they can never be more than one-note monsters without nuance or ambiguity, that's creatively limiting.

I don't have an issue making them one-note monsters, but with Pike calling them that in the latest episode I expect some kind of twist on that.
 
I don't have an issue making them one-note monsters

One-note monsters can work well once, maybe twice. For an ongoing series antagonist, you need more layers, or it gets repetitive and boring.


but with Pike calling them that in the latest episode I expect some kind of twist on that.

Yes, I had the same thought, and I certainly hope it's true. But as we've discussed, the events of "Arena" put limits on how much of a twist we can get. That's why it seems like they made a bad choice to focus on the Gorn instead of creating something new, or using the Tholians, or whatever.
 
But when it totally subverts the intents of the original creators it becomes less clever and more disrespectful.

I mean, multiple people worked on TOS. One could argue Gene L Coon’s depiction of the Federation/Starfleet subverted Gene Roddenberry’s vision and was not what GR had in mind. But that tension made the show richer.

D C Fontana’s producing/writing was closest to making TOS consistent in characterization, continuity, and outlook
 
As for the Gorn, it seems clear to me the kind of ‘they’re more complex then we ever realized and they’re not actually evil incarnate!’ multi season arc they’re going for. How successful they are, I’ll await judgement till season 3
 
I mean, multiple people worked on TOS. One could argue Gene L Coon’s depiction of the Federation/Starfleet subverted Gene Roddenberry’s vision and was not what GR had in mind. But that tension made the show richer.

It's not subversion if Roddenberry approved and allowed it. It's just the way a concept evolves as different creative minds interact.


As for the Gorn, it seems clear to me the kind of ‘they’re more complex then we ever realized and they’re not actually evil incarnate!’ multi season arc they’re going for. How successful they are, I’ll await judgement till season 3

One would hope so, but seeing as how that was the whole point of "Arena," what does it add to rehash the same arc, just slower? It just seems limited compared to creating a new antagonist. Or, heck, just doing more with the Klingons. How did we get from the peace in the wake of the Klingon War to the renewed tensions that erupted into a second war in "Errand of Mercy?"
 
And in TOS S1 Arena, while down onCestus III being attacked by the Gorn land leaving Sulu in command of the ship; when Kirk laments that they can't return to the ship, Spock says: "Sulu is an experienced combat officer."
^^^
So it seems that many of the bridge crew officers in TOS arr veterans of the Federation/Klingon War shown in Star Trek: Dscovery.

I also think about Gorkon calling Kirk a warrior. And of course the crew unhappy about hosting the Klingons in TUC.
 
Yes, I had the same thought, and I certainly hope it's true. But as we've discussed, the events of "Arena" put limits on how much of a twist we can get. That's why it seems like they made a bad choice to focus on the Gorn instead of creating something new, or using the Tholians, or whatever.

I don't think it will be a twist, just a confirmation of what we have seen already. They are predator monsters when they are young but intelligent technologically advanced lizards when they are adults. This interview with the visual effects supervisor pretty much confirms it:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/08/14/in...ervisor-j-alan-scott-on-reimagining-the-gorn/
 
The best thing to do is just throw anything that contradicts the SNW Gorn out the continuity window. Version 1.0 in "Arena" was inferior in every respect, after all.

The continuity issues, for anyone obsessed with those, can be fixed by cutting or overdubbing about three lines of dialogue in "Arena."
 
Maybe we could get some context for the likes of Gorkon and Chang in terms of their early service and why one was open to peace and the other for endless war with the Federation, but both quoting Shakespeare.
 
Instead of another musical, let’s see them do a Klingon episode where they only speak in Shakespeare quotations (kidding)
 
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