Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x05 - "Charades"

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'd argue Vulcans themselves with their repression end up making their emotions more extreme

I concur, like a boiling kettle of hot watter, they just release the steam / heat gradually so that it doesn't boil over.

Not exactly the most healthy way to deal with them.

It's strange to say that considering we know she canonically does cheat on Spock with Stonn. So if she finds what Spock does so horrific, why does she then do it herself instead of setting an example of how she feels things should be done?

To be fair, this is a real world issue too where people complain about their opponents' actions and instead of themselves acting how they claim people should, replicate the very actions they claim to despise on the excuse that the other side is already doing it.

You mean, Vulcans can be just as Hypocritical as any Human!

 

[Jedi Marso]

I'm not sure I see it as a disservice to the characters but rather a messy chapter with future consequences in an ongoing story. It is a morally questionable choice that people make in real life. I like seeing them make morally questionable choices. I love that they kissed like crazy at the end. I also love how it's going to come back and bite them both in the ass.

I'm quoting myself from another thread here:

Hollywood is, generally speaking, bereft of morals. In that vein, it is completely expected that they would morally corrupt two characters this way, because most of the movers and shakers in Hollywood don't even see it as wrong.

Spock is an honorable guy. (Or at least he used to be.) I very much wish they could have gone down the same road that Herman Wouk took with his character Pug Henry in War and Remembrance, when he was torn between his unfaithful wife and the character of Pamela Tudsbury. When the latter suggested that they just 'shack up' and take what joy they could from their lives, Pug discarded that idea outright, claiming that if he was in love enough with Pamela to do that, then he was in love enough with her to divorce his wife and marry Pamela. Later in the story, that is what happened, and Pug remained physically (if not emotionally) faithful to his estranged wife until it was officially and irredeemably over.

In this case, the characters of Spock and Chapel both would have been better served if, when T'Pring suggested a break, that Spock simply made a clean, permanent break and then gone to Chapel with a clean moral slate, heart, and conscience. Sure, the story is more dramatic this way, but at the expense of our characters' honor, as it were.

 

[Unique]

I'm not sure I see it as a disservice to the characters but rather a messy chapter with future consequences in an ongoing story. It is a morally questionable choice that people make in real life. I like seeing them make morally questionable choices. I love that they kissed like crazy at the end. I also love how it's going to come back and bite them both in the ass.

Yes, there are always consequences. Trying to have two mutually exclusive things at the same time generally means you end up with neither.

 

[Tuskin38]

Oh here it is. I was wondering when the hate would show up.

just ignore them, it will make your life better. They seem to hate 95% of modern media.

 

[Unique]

It's strange to say that considering we know she canonically does cheat on Spock with Stonn. So if she finds what Spock does so horrific, why does she then do it herself instead of setting an example of how she feels things should be done?

To be fair, this is a real world issue too where people complain about their opponents' actions and instead of themselves acting how they claim people should, replicate the very actions they claim to despise on the excuse that the other side is already doing it.

I’m starting to realize that seeing TOS in syndication only means I’ve missed some episodes.
I’ll have to rectify that.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I’m starting to realize that seeing TOS in syndication only means I’ve missed some episodes.
I’ll have to rectify that.

"Amok Time" is the only TOS episode dealing with Spock and T'Pring, so that's the one you're looking for if you haven't seen it.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I was so-so on it at best. It seems like the SNW writers are using all of their goofiest ideas for Spock ("Hey, let's a do a body swap episode!" "Hey, let's have Spock changed into being fully human!" "HIJINKS ENSUE!!!!"), I guess because so much has been done with the character already.

For my money, the Kelvin movies, DSC, and SNW all go to the "Spock loses control of his emotions" well much too often. The power of Spock's character is that he's emotionally withdrawn. The more often you subvert that, the less powerful it becomes each time. If it were up to me, we'd only have Spock lose control once every 25-30 episodes or so, if that. TOS did it about once a season IIRC ("This Side of Paradise," "Amok Time," and "All Our Yesterdays," but I'm probably forgetting other examples). More often than that and it gets old.

So just a 5 out of 10 for me, I'm afraid.

EDIT: Once again though, I absolutely loved Anson Mount's performance as Pike. He's consistently the best part of the show for me.

 

[Yistaan]

In this case, the characters of Spock and Chapel both would have been better served if, when T'Pring suggested a break, that Spock simply made a clean, permanent break and then gone to Chapel with a clean moral slate, heart, and conscience. Sure, the story is more dramatic this way, but at the expense of our characters' honor, as it were.

Eh, in a perfect world things would be that way. But they're not. That's why as a single guy I wondered why it seemed like everyone was already taken, and only later I found out that most of the women were in relationships, latch onto a new guy while still not officially breaking it off with the old guy, then break it off with the old guy when they've latched hooks into the new guy. That's why there were so few single women (at least where I lived, both in Northern and Southern California). There's even a term for it, monkeybranching, and the end result is many women aren't ever officially single long enough (if at all) to the point you can date them because so many of them jump straight to the new relationship while still in the old one and you have no opportunity at all to approach them when they're single.

Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it illegal? No. Considering I've seen this happen so many times in real life and have come to accept it, I'm sort of surprised at all the complaints here *especially* when T'Pring outright told Spock it's a break time.

 

[fireproof78]

M'Benga's going to get himself demoted, for instance.

Or, a more senior medical officer was assigned the billet and he continued on as a staff doctor.

That's not a demotion. That's part of the service.

I know it's a problem with all of Star Trek's cultures, except maybe the Bajorans, but one wonders how they have all these stupid rules while managing their reliance on logic.

Logic is only as good as the information feeding it and goals that are being put forth. Logic is not some magic wand that automatically makes someone incapable of incorrect action. Logic is simply a pattern of behavior and thinking based upon what is known or the goals that inform that pursuit. If the goal of Vulcans is to preserve their culture, their identity and way of life then logic dictates that they have strict boundaries around their traditions, their roles in the Federation, and how to ensure their survival in accordance with their traditions.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Eh, in a perfect world things would be that way. But they're not. That's why as a single guy I wondered why it seemed like everyone was already taken, and only later I found out that most of the women were in relationships, latch onto a new guy while still not officially breaking it off with the old guy, then break it off with the old guy when they've latched hooks into the new guy. That's why there were so few single women (at least where I lived, both in Northern and Southern California). There's even a term for it, monkeybranching, and the end result is many women aren't ever officially single long enough (if at all) to the point you can date them because so many of them jump straight to the new relationship while still in the old one and you have no opportunity at all to approach them when they're single.

Heh. That's not just NORCAL and SOCAL, and a conversation to be had far from this board, I'm thinking.

 

[Jedi Marso]

For my money, the Kelvin movies, DSC, and SNW all go to the "Spock loses control of his emotions" well much too often. The power of Spock's character is that he's emotionally withdrawn. The more often you subvert that, the less powerful it becomes each time.

Very valid point.

 

[marillion]

Did it seem like Pike might have been a bit tipsy during the ritual? I mean hell, I would have tried to take the edge off too, but the looks and the mannerisms give me the impression that he might have been hitting the scotch a little more than he let on. LOL.

Overall, another fantastic episode. Great character development and I love Spock's mom. I'm not familiar with the actress, but she really nailed it.

 

[Yistaan]

Very valid point.

This was an issue dating literally to the creation of Trek I recall. TOS writers were concerned that too many episodes (This Side of Paradise, Naked Time, etc.) were featuring Spock losing control.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

That's why as a single guy I wondered why it seemed like everyone was already taken, and only later I found out that most of the women were in relationships, latch onto a new guy while still not officially breaking it off with the old guy, then break it off with the old guy when they've latched hooks into the new guy. That's why there were so few single women (at least where I lived, both in Northern and Southern California). There's even a term for it, monkeybranching, and the end result is many women aren't ever officially single long enough (if at all) to the point you can date them because so many of them jump straight to the new relationship while still in the old one and you have no opportunity at all to approach them when they're single.

This seems like a SoCal problem, dude. And the exact same thing has been said to me about men in LA by women. Your perspective (and the corroborating support for it from outside sources) may be broadly representative of a culture in SoCal (certainly LA), but your assigning blame to "how women are" is really reductive and unpleasant. I keep trying to be sympathetic for your experience because it sounds awful, but then you say shit like this and all I can think is "incel." And I think you are better than that. So stop. I'm begging you. AS A WOMAN.

 

[fireproof78]

This seems like a SoCal problem, dude. And the exact same thing has been said to me about men in LA by women. Your perspective (and the corroborating support for it from outside sources) may be broadly representative of a culture in SoCal (certainly LA), but your assigning blame to "how women are" is really reductive and unpleasant. I keep trying to be sympathetic for your experience because it sounds awful, but then you say shit like this and all I can think is "incel." And I think you are better than that. So stop. I'm begging you. AS A WOMAN.

Yeah, I had never heard of this as a problem, though I've been off the market for 15 years now. But, even in college this was not a thing.

People are strange.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Well, that escalated just as quickly and predictably as I thought, hence my suggestion above that this was a conversation for a place other than this BBS.

 

[valden]

Well that's a human, religiously influenced at that, take on the situation. We don't know what the Vulcan perspective is. For all we know, T'Pring knew about Spock and Chapel all along and said "take a break" as passive permission for Spock and Chapel to get it out of their system.

Vulcans are logical beings and not emotional we're told. As long as Chapel and Spock use protection and don't pop out any kids, T'Pring might logically not see an issue if she and Spock aren't even married yet. Alien values aren't necessarily human ones. We saw that with Denobulans and their polygamous practices for example.

What T'Pring herself does in Amok Time almost getting Kirk killed is far, far worse in my opinion.

get it off his system only for Leia Kemoni to bring it back sometime later? maybe he has a thing for pretty blondes when he was younger.

still though, spock should have called it off. this ruins him. Peck Spock is a CW prototype character.

Maybe this is more john lennon shacking it up with may pang after yoko ono told him they needed a break, the only difference is yoko was aware of pang and supported it.


john is more hournnable than spock.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, that escalated just as quickly and predictably as I thought, hence my suggestion above that this was a conversation for a place other than this BBS.

Relationship discussions on the internet are hard.

 

[Yistaan]

get it off his system only for Leia Kemoni to bring it back sometime later? maybe he has a thing for pretty blondes when he was younger.

still though, spock should have called it off. this ruins him. Peck Spock is a CW prototype character.

Maybe this is more john lennon shacking it up with may pang after yoko ono told him they needed a break, the only difference is yoko was aware of pang and supported it.


john is more hournnable than spock.

Given the escalation referred to by @Jedi Marso I'm not going to discuss this topic any more for my own safety. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Okmyx]

a starfleet ship has a warmer environment than a typical Vulcan kitchen? Seems odd knowing how hot Vulcan is. Unless they cook in a refrigerator