Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[blssdwlf]

Schrodinger's Enterprise. LOL

I guess THE Enterprise now means more than one.

Of I forgot to ask, since the TOS one is above the SNW one, is that a ranking?

THE Enterprise.

It's the one with the round saucer, cylindrical secondary hull with a dish, and round nacelles with red/orange bussard collectors.

 

[blssdwlf]

Because one is informed by the other. So I treat them as the same and see no reason to do otherwise.

Mileage will vary. Personally, I'm tired of strict literalism in fiction.

How do you discuss fiction then? Do you ever have to clarify to someone which James Bond you're talking about? Or the differences between a movie and the novel it is based on? Or even make a distinction between your car and another car of the same year, make and model? Just curious.

EDIT: For example, sooner or later we'll be joking about Kirk's odd. speaking. habit. And someone is going to say, he doesn't do that. And we'll ask don't you watch Shatner Kirk? And we find out they're thinking of Wesley Kirk or Pine Kirk. Then the joke is lost...

 

[HotRod]

Of I forgot to ask, since the TOS one is above the SNW one, is that a ranking?

No.

 

[blssdwlf]

No.

Okay. Mind another question? Do you draw your Enterprise with angled back warp nacelle pylons or straight?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If you don't mind, @Serveaux, I'm going to quote you from over in the "Producer Akiva Goldsman on SNW Season Two..." thread.

Of course, if characters are put together in SNW who were not previously "canonically together..." they are now canonically together.

As far as canon is concerned, that's it in a nutshell.

I don't see Goldsman saying anywhere that therefore SNW isn't canon. And I also don't see Goldsman saying that, because things might now be different than how we imagined them before, therefore SNW is in another continuity. That's an interpretation of his remarks, but it's not the only viable one.

 

[fireproof78]

How do you discuss fiction then? D

About specific installments. That doesn't make it a separate continuity.

Do you ever have to clarify to someone which James Bond you're talking about?

Never seen it and don't care to.

Or the differences between a movie and the novel it is based on?

That feels painfully obvious.

Or even make a distinction between your car and another car of the same year, make and model? Just curious.

I don't discuss cars.

 

[blssdwlf]

About specific installments. That doesn't make it a separate continuity.

Never seen it and don't care to.

That feels painfully obvious.

I don't discuss cars.

What does continuity have to do with discussing fiction? I was just asking how you differentiate things.

If you don't mind, @Serveaux, I'm going to quote you from over in the "Producer Akiva Goldsman on SNW Season Two..." thread.


As far as canon is concerned, that's it in a nutshell.

I don't see Goldsman saying anywhere that therefore SNW isn't canon. And I also don't see Goldsman saying that, because things might now be different than how we imagined them before, therefore SNW is in another continuity. That's an interpretation of his remarks, but it's not the only viable one.

And I don't recall ever stating that SNW isn't canon either. But if you change things in one series where it overlaps with another I just find it easier to discuss as two separate series because I have no expectation that the two should line up (based on Goldsman's statements.)

Oh, again, @CorporalCaptain - what's your endgame for this discussion? It'd help to know why we're circling around on this topic.

 

[fireproof78]

What does continuity have to do with discussing fiction? I was just asking how you differentiate things.

Because I like how things connect. I do believe that is the appeal of ongoing franchises.

To me it's like discussing different books in a series. The title is sufficient.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Schrodinger's Enterprise. LOL

I guess THE Enterprise now means more than one.

It was always Schrödinger's Enterprise. In TOS, it was because of the various times when the stock footage was filmed. The possibility of the ship undergoing upgrades over time to account for the evolution of the model went out the window when stock footage showing different states of the model started getting used all in the same episode. That was pretty early on. @Tallguy might be able to tell us just how early.

This broke continuity in nearly every TOS episode, if not every single one.

But if you'd simply ask, which Enterprise is your favorite, it would be an answerable question, if maybe one more appropriate for General Trek.

 

[HotRod]

Okay. Mind another question? Do you draw your Enterprise with angled back warp nacelle pylons or straight?

I don't draw. I build models. Yes, I can visually distinguish them as old and new, but they are still both, to me, THE Enterprise. Just as Kirstie Alley and Robin Curtis are Saavik. Just as Michael Gambon and Richard Harris are both Dumbledore. Just as Elisabeth Shue and Claudia Wells are Jennifer in Back to the Future.

 

[Paul755]

I just watch SNW (and Disco) and head canon them as being in a different quantum reality. Like what Worf encountered in S7 of TNG. We know from that episode there are millions out there, some with changes as slight as Worf having a Chocolate Cake instead of vanilla. Or as big as the Bajorans conquering Cardassia. But I’m not trying to convince anyone to follow my line of thinking.

and I don’t find the idea of SNW being an alternate universe is lazy. If anything it frees up the writers to not check Memory Alpha every 5 minutes to decide if they are gonna change something established in TOS.

Look at Pike in the Kelvin Timeline. He wasn’t majorly crippled saving cadets, he was crippled only to where he had to use a cane by a really angry time traveling Romulan, became a father figure to Kirk and was murdered by Kahn and a rouge Admiral. Like it or not…that’s different.

 

[fireproof78]

Just comes down to personal preference. The Kelvin universe is literally called out as alternate.

Discovery and Strange New Worlds use reference plot points and visuals direct from The Cage. Clearly not alternate.

For me it's primarily set dressing retelling in universe events. That's easier than quatum multiverse bullshit.

Mileage, and universes may vary.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, again, @CorporalCaptain - what's your endgame for this discussion? It'd help to know why we're circling around on this topic.

Endgame? There's no endgame. This isn't a game, and there's no "gotcha" hiding around the corner.

This thread is for having a discussion about the topics outlined in the OP, nothing more, nothing less.

Beeping once for yes and twice for no is fine, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss more. So I deliberately did not include a poll (at least at the outset), because a) it's not a topic that can be settled by a vote, b) it's not a popularity contest, and c) I am genuinely interested in the opinions and views from my fellow fans of their ideas about canon, continuity, and SNW, including but not limited to how these issues pertain to Pike's accident.

Pike's accident is clearly something important to the overall story in SNW. It has factored directly into two of the ten first season episodes, with one of those episodes fully dedicated to exploring relatively immediate consequences of trying to alter the outcome. I'll be quite surprised if it's not followed up again in a major way in season 2.

And, by the way, you asked for my opinion in the other thread, but as explained in the OP, the answer was literally beyond the scope of the forum in which the original thread was. So, here we are... over here.

And finally, honestly, I really like what they're doing with the accident. "A Quality of Mercy" swung for the fences, which is rare. How the accident will be handled or might be handled is a bona fide topic of discussion.

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't draw. I build models. Yes, I can visually distinguish them as old and new, but they are still both, to me, THE Enterprise. Just as Kirstie Alley and Robin Curtis are Saavik. Just as Michael Gambon and Richard Harris are both Dumbledore. Just as Elisabeth Shue and Claudia Wells are Jennifer in Back to the Future.

Right, I've hit Like on your Kelvin, NX-01 builds in the Fan Art section. So if you were given a commission to build THE Enterprise and could only build one model, which one would it be? Or would you be tempted to kitbash the best parts of the two versions together?

Because I like how things connect. I do believe that is the appeal of ongoing franchises.

To me it's like discussing different books in a series. The title is sufficient.

Cool, that makes sense then. So would it best to discuss different episodes and series by their title to help differentiate things?

It was always Schrödinger's Enterprise. In TOS, it was because of the various times when the stock footage was filmed. The possibility of the ship undergoing upgrades over time to account for the evolution of the model went out the window when stock footage showing different states of the model started getting used all in the same episode. That was pretty early on. @Tallguy might be able to tell us just how early.

This broke continuity in nearly every TOS episode, if not every single one.

Were the different versions of the ships seen in each episode ever posited to be an upgrade over time?

But if you'd simply ask, which Enterprise is your favorite, it would be an answerable question, if maybe one more appropriate for General Trek.

If they are the same continuity, is there a "which" Enterprise?

 

[Commander Troi]

Is mine a plausible scenario?

Does any of this have any impact on whether TOS and SNW are in the same continuity? What are the determining factors as to whether TOS and SNW are in the same continuity?

Yes, it's plausible and I like it. It's got a good beat and I can dance to it.

They are the same continuity. I've been a comic book fan as long as I've been a Star Trek fan, so I recognize that continuity can and does constantly change and I don't fret my pretty little head about it too much.

 

[fireproof78]

Cool, that makes sense then. So would it best to discuss different episodes and series by their title to help differentiate things?

Naturally.

Yes, it's plausible and I like it. It's got a good beat and I can dance to it.

They are the same continuity. I've been a comic book fan as long as I've been a Star Trek fan, so I recognize that continuity can and does constantly change and I don't fret my pretty little head about it too much.

Smart.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If they are the same continuity, is there a "which" Enterprise?

I thought it was obvious what was meant, but I'll rephrase.

Which external realization of the NCC-1701 Enterprise is your favorite?​

That's realization in the sense of "The result of an artistic effort" [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/realization#Noun].

Mine is the original VFX TOS version with the ping-pong balls in the back of the nacelles. The TMP refit is a close second.

 

[blssdwlf]

Endgame? There's no endgame. This isn't a game, and there's no "gotcha" hiding around the corner.

This thread is for having a discussion about the topics outlined in the OP, nothing more, nothing less.

Beeping once for yes and twice for no is fine, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss more. So I deliberately did not include a poll (at least at the outset), because a) it's not a topic that can be settled by a vote, b) it's not a popularity contest, and c) I am genuinely interested in the opinions and views from my fellow fans of their ideas about canon, continuity, and SNW, including but not limited to how these issues pertain to Pike's accident.

Pike's accident is clearly something important to the overall story in SNW. It has factored directly into two of the ten first season episodes, with one of those episodes fully dedicated to exploring relatively immediate consequences of trying to alter the outcome. I'll be quite surprised if it's not followed up again in a major way in season 2.

And, by the way, you asked for my opinion in the other thread, but as explained in the OP, the answer was literally beyond the scope of the forum in which the original thread was. So, here we are... over here.

And finally, honestly, I really like what they're doing with the accident. "A Quality of Mercy" swung for the fences, which is rare. How the accident will be handled or might be handled is a bona fide topic of discussion.

Good to know where you stand. I wished you had also written that I had put forth two continuities due to changes introduced by the showrunner as an alternative to the back and forth over the differences between April in TAS and SNW. The thread you started over here is us just going back and forth about how we both deal with the differences.

I too am looking forward to what happens in Season 2.

 

[Paul755]

Just comes down to personal preference.

this is exactly it.

 

[HotRod]

So if you were given a commission to build THE Enterprise and could only build one model, which one would it be?

I'd build whatever that person wanted me to build.