Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x10 - "The Last Generation"

[Racefuel]

Self imposed limitations of tech and capabilities is something all science fiction writers have done.

It creates tension, friction, challenges to overcome and such which is where stories come from. Handwaving it away as contrievance is forgetting that for something to *remotely* seem possible there has to be limits.

Limits on replicators, transporters, communications, weapons, medicine..its all necessary

 

[Rahul]

Btw I finally saw the episode today, so here my brief review:

For me, mostly wasted potential. At this point I hate callbacks, references and so on. And now it became quite obvious, that the entire season was essentially just the producers saving up money to have this full-on frontal nostalgia wank-fest at the end.

Even though ironically their character work before that was way better!

It was mostly entertaining btw.
(Except for the D suddenly being a fighter jet - big Discovery Turbolift vibes).

Overall though, the season has 2 completely separated halfs:

• Ep 1-8, the whole changeling/conspiracy stuff - was far stronger - great characters, atmosphere, and well developed
• Ep 9-10 made a COMPLETE pivot to a completely different, more bombastic, but WAY shallow plot

The connection between the two feels shallow at best. There was at least an entire episode missing that went more into the details & motivations why the changelings work with the Borg (and if it's simply they're a death cult, or already partially assimilated - need SOMETHING!).

Overall, TNG was my 2nd favourite Trek series. The movies felt a bit disappointing, but at least somewhat original. This one tried to recreate the TOS movies with TNG's ending. It did well - but we have seen all of this before, in better!

In the end, IMO this should have stayed a changeling plot until the very end. OR introduced the Borg in ep. 6. But NOT pivot in the penultimate episode, the same mistake season 1 already did.

The D (bridge & cgi) looked nice though, so I know why it gets showered with praise...

 

[thribs]

I agree. They should have introduced the Borg episode 4 and go into more of their alliance and their plan. When you think about it, it doesn’t really make much sense.

 

[Fateor]

There's a BIG gap between being able to do matter-to-energy conversion and make any object you want of arbitrary complexity. They can't replicate living material, for example; and it's hard to see how a replicator working at molecular resolution could do anything that required subatomic capabilities, like certain exotic particles or some advanced forms of nanotechnology.

They figured out how to replicate living material in 2368.

As of Voyager they were capable of replicating nanoprobes and the like, though it was apparently time intensive to do.

And the subatomic manipulation limit was overcome in 2375, when Jack and the others figured out how to re-calibrate Bashir's Neurocortical Probe.

 

[seigezunt]

I had a ton of fun. Its faults were the kind of faults the series has had over all, so no big surprises there.
There seems to be a pattern each season where the penultimate episode kind of stinks and violates the momentum of the previous episodes, but then the finale kind of ties it up in a satisfying way, sort of.

For me, as a TOS fan, I kind of feel this was the flip side of what can be said about Discovery: in the end, I probably wasn't full-on the target audience for this, and with that acknowledgement, I can have fun with it. With the finale, it felt like this season was basically fixing the faults of Nemesis, giving TNG fans the emotional send-off that fans of my generation got with Star Trek VI, satisfyingly so.

And for people wishing this ship or that character could have been worked in, I have to say that, as it was, the finale felt like the four endings of The Return of the King. Any more would have been crazy.

 

[Pauln6]

I enjoyed the series and the finale. Some of the dialogue was great. It did veer into self-indulgence (a problem often seen with classsic characters including STV and STVI) and they did that annoying thing with characters hugging it out and affirming their feelings while thousands of people are dying. They need to start court martialling people for that, the number of resulting casualties is horrifying.

Overall, a really great send off.

What happened to Durati's Collective though? I thought it would have at least got a mention.

 

[Macintosh]

Sure thing, but antimatter is just matter with an opposite charge and spin. It's no more complex than regular matter. It can be converted in exactly the same manner.

Whilst that's true it's not really relevant to what we were talking about... and you probably don't want to have replicators that can easily spew antimatter anyway.

One wonders why not. They can replicate entire buffets of organic matter with complex molecular compositions.

That doesn't make them alive. Replicators work in molecular rather than quantum resolution, which is what is required for living lifeforms in the Star Trek universe.

In fact, that's not even true. The transporter is just another form of replicator and it can definitely create life forms. Tom Riker is an example of the transporter being able to make copies.

Transporters replicated a person once in two hundred years of god knows how many billions of transports due to freakl possibly unique, conditions. Being able to freely replicate people, or reverse ageing and essentially guarantee immortality (TNG: "Unnatural Selection) as another magic transporter feature we see once and never again, is something you REALLY want to impose limitations on if you're hoping to have a dramatically satisfying narrative. Everyone's dead? Just replicate them. Ship's blown up? Just replicate it. Don't need an EMH, just replicate your existing biological chief medical officer. Captain's kidnapped by the Borg? Get out the backup from the ship's replimat.

The other issue you seem to be missing is that replicating an entire starship would require a staggeringly vast amount of energy. Starfleet doesn't have infinite amounts of antimatter on tap. Where would they get this from?

 

[Racefuel]

Starfleet doesn't have infinite amounts of antimatter on tap. Where would they get this from?

The Dyson Sphere of course

 

[Fateor]

That doesn't make them alive. Replicators work in molecular rather than quantum resolution, which is what is required for living lifeforms in the Star Trek universe.

*Points out the Genetronic Replicator which was capable of it.*

Transporters replicated a person once in two hundred years of god knows how many billions of transports due to freakl possibly unique, conditions.

Three times that we know about actually.

The other issue you seem to be missing is that replicating an entire starship would require a staggeringly vast amount of energy. Starfleet doesn't have infinite amounts of antimatter on tap. Where would they get this from?

Fusion is a thing and doesn't require Antimatter.

Something, which to be fair, the Discovery writers apparently forgot existed.

 

[Macintosh]

They figured out how to replicate living material in 2368.

"The genetronic replicator was a type of DNA-based generator developed by Dr.Toby Russell. This revolutionary medical device could scan the genetic information in a damaged organ, translate that information into a set of instructions for replication, and replicate an entirely new, healthy organ for replacement."

This to me sounds like it's biologically growing a replacement from a standard template modified according to the patient's DNA to ensure a perfect tissue match. It does not sound like someone pressed some buttons and a new organ shimmered into existence on the replicator pad. Replication is term used across genetics and cell biology.

And the subatomic manipulation limit was overcome in 2375, when Jack and the others figured out how to re-calibrate Bashir's Neurocortical Probe.

That's... not a replicator. Also, regular transporters work in quantum rather than molecular resolution, and have done for about 200 years by the time of TNG/DS9. The issue with replicators isn't that they have to work in molecular resolution due to some fundamental technical limitation (Heisenberg, you hush now). The issue is that quantum resolution patterns are ENORMOUS and can't be easily stored even with the largest computers available (cf. DS9: "Our Man Bashir"). You could have the most exquisitely capable subatomic manipulator available capable of teasing apart individual superstrings in all eleven dimensions, but if you can only store enough data for a handful of strings at a time you aren't going to be able to use it to produce a steak dinner.

 

[Trekker4747]

DS9 also went toe to toe with entire fleets.

And as far as we know the ability of Space Stations to do that is linked to their ginormous fusion generators and much greater space for things like Shield Emitters.

The thing a lot of people here don't seem to be getting, is that compared to starships, space stations just aren't actually that complex at their most basic. Oh, you can add complexity via things like science labs and what not. But at the end of the day, Space Stations are just larger Star Ships without things like Warp Drive and overpowered Inertial Dampeners.



Sure it can.

As of Prodigy they have confirmed Starfleet can now utilize free standing replicator arms to construct something. Relay the replication matter and energy through drones from elsewhere, which we already know they can do from the Exocomps, and there's functionally no difference outside of the size of the object being constructed.

Really, the only limiting factor for construction once you hit that point is computing power to coordinate the construction. And outside of the headscratcher that is Discovery's Spore Drive, computing power has never been a problem for the Federation.

Spacedock is the size and complexity of a small city. It's absurd to think it can just be replicated. Components and pieces of it, sure, but then they'd need to bed constructed. But they're not going to just pull out a massive replicator with petawatts of energy or quadratons of matter sources, press a button and then five seconds have a Spacedock. The thing is MASSIVE and complicated. It's a lot to accept that it can even be designed and built.

 

[Belz...]

Plot contrivance that's... canon

Every plot contrivance is canon. That doesn't change anything.

Self imposed limitations of tech and capabilities is something all science fiction writers have done.

Of course. But it has to make some sense. Here it feels very arbitrary.

Whilst that's true it's not really relevant to what we were talking about... and you probably don't want to have replicators that can easily spew antimatter anyway.

As a storyteller, for sure. On the other hand that's why I wouldn't have put replicators in Star Trek, to begin with.

That doesn't make them alive.

The difference between living and dead matter isn't one of complexity.

Transporters replicated a person once in two hundred years of god knows how many billions of transports due to freakl possibly unique, conditions.

No, that's not it. The accident was a fluke, but the point is that the technology can do it at will. In Trek we often hear about "beaming" the "pattern", but there's nothing stopping you from taking more energy from the ship and making more copies from the same pattern. They never do it on the show, but there's no reason why it can't be done easily, since that's what the transporter does to begin with. Replicators use the same technology, and can make many copies from the same pattern.

Being able to freely replicate people, or reverse ageing and essentially guarantee immortality (TNG: "Unnatural Selection) as another magic transporter feature we see once and never again, is something you REALLY want to impose limitations on if you're hoping to have a dramatically satisfying narrative. Everyone's dead? Just replicate them. Ship's blown up? Just replicate it.

I'm not arguing the idea that it would disrupt storytelling. It certainly would. I'm just saying that they have arbitrarily limited the technology in order to not have to deal with its obvious consequences. You think the Romulans or the Dominion would balk at the idea of an army of copied warriors or scores of replicated attack ships? If you want to stay alive, the Federation would be forced to do the same.

The other issue you seem to be missing is that replicating an entire starship would require a staggeringly vast amount of energy. Starfleet doesn't have infinite amounts of antimatter on tap. Where would they get this from?

I'm not missing the issue; it doesn't exist. There is enough energy you can collect from stars and other sources to build anything, and they already assemble starships and gigantic space stations such as Yorktown, which require almost the same staggering amount of energy, but a lot more time and manpower. The replication technology exists and is used constantly on the show already. There is no barrier to the kind of action I'm describing. The writers just never go there.

 

[Fateor]

"The genetronic replicator was a type of DNA-based generator developed by Dr.Toby Russell. This revolutionary medical device could scan the genetic information in a damaged organ, translate that information into a set of instructions for replication, and replicate an entirely new, healthy organ for replacement."

This to me sounds like it's biologically growing a replacement from a standard template modified according to the patient's DNA to ensure a perfect tissue match. It does not sound like someone pressed some buttons and a new organ shimmered into existence on the replicator pad. Replication is term used across genetics and cell biology.

"replicate an entirely new, healthy organ for replacement"

It literally states they replicated an entirely new healthy organ...

That's... not a replicator. Also, regular transporters work in quantum rather than molecular resolution, and have done for about 200 years by the time of TNG/DS9. The issue with replicators isn't that they have to work in molecular resolution due to some fundamental technical limitation (Heisenberg, you hush now). The issue is that quantum resolution patterns are ENORMOUS and can't be easily stored even with the largest computers available (cf. DS9: "Our Man Bashir"). You could have the most exquisitely capable subatomic manipulator available capable of teasing apart individual superstrings in all eleven dimensions, but if you can only store enough data for a handful of strings at a time you aren't going to be able to use it to produce a steak dinner.

You're mixing up the halves from "Our Man Bashir".

ROM: Neural energy has to be stored at the quantum level. The holosuite can't handle that.
ODO: So if their physical bodies are stored here, where are their brain patterns?
QUARK: Everywhere else. Their brain patterns are so large that they're taking up every bit of computer memory on the station. Replicator memory, weapons, life supports.

It was specifically the neural energy that had to be stored at a quantum level, and also that was the crappy Cardasian computers, not Starfleet computers. Which we know from 11001001 are capable of a lot higher level of storage.

Spacedock is the size and complexity of a small city. It's absurd to think it can just be replicated. Components and pieces of it, sure, but then they'd need to bed constructed. But they're not going to just pull out a massive replicator with petawatts of energy or quadratons of matter sources, press a button and then five seconds have a Spacedock. The thing is MASSIVE and complicated. It's a lot to accept that it can even be designed and built.

You would have been right 15-20 years ago in universe.

Once the Vehicle Replication system came about however all that would have changed. Because you would be able to assemble anything using things equipped with replication emitters instead of requiring an entire replication bed.

 

[Trekker4747]

They're not replicating Spacedocks. It's wild enough they're building ones that can house Galaxy-class ships. They're certainly not pressing a button and just getting a mushroom the size of an asteroid in a few seconds.

 

[Fateor]

They're not replicating Spacedocks. It's wild enough they're building ones that can house Galaxy-class ships. They're certainly not pressing a button and just getting a mushroom the size of an asteroid in a few seconds.

Nobody but you is saying "in a few seconds".

 

[Macintosh]

*Points out the Genetronic Replicator which was capable of it.*

*Points out that I've already answered this elsewhere and that it was clearly so successful and revolutionary a technology that it was never seen or heard from again.*

Three times that we know about actually.

Ooh, you got me. Three times out of untold billions of transports rather than only one.

Fusion is a thing and doesn't require Antimatter.

Does require fuel though, and presumably large amounts of energy storage of some kind, unless you're going to replicate your starship v-e-r-y s---l---o---w---l---y. Feeding a gas giant into a fusion reactor just to produce a single starship seems a touch... wasteful, no?

Let's take Voyager as an example, which is the only starship we have a canonical on-screen mass for (700,000 tons). Assuming perfect energy storage and energy-to-matter conversion efficiency, which is of course impossible but for the sake of argument let's go with it, to replicate that would require 6.3e25 J. That's a lot of energy. It's about a sixth that of the total amount of energy our sun outputs every second. To produce that much energy by the much less efficient deuterium and deuterium-tritium fusion we know Starfleet fusion reactors use would require 75,000,000 tons of fuel – again, assuming impossibly perfect storage/conversion efficiencies/etc. That much deuterium, if stored as a cryogenic liquid, would occupy around 450,000m³, which is equivalent to a sphere 120m in diameter. That's a BIG reactor.

 

[Macintosh]

The Dyson Sphere of course

The one that was abandoned because of how unstable the central star had become?

 

[Racefuel]

The one that was abandoned because of how unstable the central star had become?

Handwaves away plot contrievance in classic BBS style

 

[Racefuel]

You just replicate a new sun and a new dyson sphere so you can replicate a ship which requires a dyson sphere that you just replicated around a sun

It makes perfect sense

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

They figured out how to replicate living material in 2368.

As of Voyager they were capable of replicating nanoprobes and the like, though it was apparently time intensive to do.

If you read over the articles over the Genetronic Replicator and how it worked on Worf, it took ALOT of time on the Surgery Bed to replicate a entirely new Spinal Column for him. It's not like a traditional Replicator that you tell it to replicate ___ object and it's done for you in seconds, it could take many hours or days depending on complexity, volume, mass, & size of the organic part that you want to replicate.

That doesn't mean it isn't a miracle that you can even do that, it's incredibly valuable, even if it takes that long.

Not everything needs to be "Instantaneous Gratification".

Even having the option to get new organs in a set of hours is considered miracle work.