Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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And tortured Odo. Oh, but he's friends with Bashir so it's ok to torture people.
I'm not opposed to it changing, but what irked Ira (And a lot of others) was the way Section 31 was being turned into a "cool" thing. Like, the cool rebel kids who don't play by the rules, man, but they get results! Which was not how Ira intended for them to be viewed, at all. He told me he actually had plans to maybe use them as THE villain of DS9 if he ever got the chance to move beyond the Dominion War.
Certainly we're not beholden to his ideas (And lord knows he had some stinkers) but in this case I think he has a good point.
I still don't see Section 31 as cool as presented.
It strikes as just following along the tendency to explore shadow organizations that seemed to pop.up in the 90s too. Kind of like the Invisible Man SF show.
It strikes as just following along the tendency to explore shadow organizations that seemed to pop.up in the 90s too. Kind of like the Invisible Man SF show.
Honestly, I never saw the attraction of a series about an organization that abducts and tortures beings. Don't really want to go that way. No, the S31 well has been tainted.
Perhaps it's suitable for use in other series where it is an organization that has to be dealt with. But not good for its own series. I'm glad they've demoted it from series to TV movie.
Perhaps it's suitable for use in other series where it is an organization that has to be dealt with. But not good for its own series. I'm glad they've demoted it from series to TV movie.
What difference does it make? People will either Ike it and engage with it as it is presented or whine about it, whether it's a show or movie.
For me, I wasn't that interested in it for the reasons I mentioned. Hence, the fact that it's a movie means it's over and done more quickly than a full series. That's the difference for me.
Yeah, that's prejudging. But I'm not interested in organizations that use torture!
Paging Captain Janeway.
It never did.
People who love Trek invest so much in it that many can't stand the fact that it's a trivial activity on a cultural level. Popular culture as a whole reflects a people's values and reinforces them, and Trek has always been squarely in the mainstream of that.
I'm not sure i get what you're referencing there.
Are you saying it isn't culturally influential? Or are you saying it is, but only because it's mainstream in its value system?
The fact that its POV is so aggressively mainstream - and has become more so as the property's value to its owners - effectively diminishes its cultural influence. Trek upholds normative and popular values, always - as do cop shows, westerns, detective fiction, in fact virtually every kind of broadly popular narrative.
That the values of those genres are not entirely congruent doesn't mitigate the fact at all. Our cultures are pluralistic to the extent of accepting a range of beliefs and worldviews.
Some kinds of fiction are culture-critical, or at least the authors' points of view are sufficiently idiosyncratic so as to hold up more honest reflections and observations of our world. Star Trek is not that kind of fiction.
100% agree. S31 needs to be rooted out and destroyed. That's the approach. Not make it a seemingly virtuous organization that uses a few "questionable" techniques. And given the Empress that we've seen, no, she's not going to reform the system.
We don't know what she'll do since she has changed, by her own admission.
I guess we'll find out. But I don't have hopes for this premise. And I don't understand the general fascination with it.
Now, I might need to turn in my ST card, but I didn't get your previous Janeway reference?
She left an Equinox crewmember to die by the hand of one of the aliens to make them talk.
I don't have a lot of hope either but I'm interested in it regardless. My fascination is the fact that we have a true opportunity to show a human being evolve and to change their behaviors despite past experiences. That's the Trek ethos! Change and choices! I welcome that at least.
Well, we'll see. That at least would be an interesting aspect.
I've meet people who have been tortured during prolonged imprisonment in a place that resembled hell. Women who couldn't later have children because of the torture. And of course tales from them about those who didn't survive. Many who were never found. I've met them through someone who had family members killed by the same regime.
It's horrible stuff. It sounds horrible, but it's even more horrible than it sounds. That all happened back in the 70s, but it leaves a pall to this day. So, I have zero tolerance for institutions that torture. Definitely don't want a series made surrounding one.
I agree it's horrible. I don't want a series based on it but I am willing to engage with fiction as presented. Fiction is not my wish fulfillment.
That said, torture is horrible, but in Star Trek it isn't. O'Brien, Odo, Spock, Valeris, Kirk, all get tortured at some point in time in their Trek careers and carry on, amongst others that I'm surely forgetting.
But, this is Star Trek, and if we're willing to embrace Klingons as allies, including Kor who was willing to torture Spock, and enslave whole populations, and kill them, then I struggle with the line being drawn for Georgiou who has freely admitted she doesn't belong in the MU any more showing a change to her character. I welcome exploring that change, even if I don't want this series necessarily.
Those individual cases are bad enough. But I have a stronger reaction against institutions that do it systematically. Hence, my strong reaction against S31.
That doesn't justify those other cases you mention, of course. But systematic, prolonged torture in hellish confinement conditions is particularly repugnant. There shouldn't be a series centering on that type of organization . . . and I'm glad there apparently won't be one.
That doesn't justify those other cases you mention, of course. But systematic, prolonged torture in hellish confinement conditions is particularly repugnant. There shouldn't be a series centering on that type of organization . . . and I'm glad there apparently won't be one.
There shouldn't be, eh? Ok, wasn't aware we only make series based on morally upright institutions...
So, you would have an issue with a Klingon Empire series? Cause that's what they did.
ETA: And to clarify I am not trying to be a dick or get a "Gotcha" moment. I'm genuinely curious to were the line is, because we have seen people and institutions in Trek use torture without much concern down the road. The Klingons being the most notable institutionalized example.
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