Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x09 - "Võx"

[Crewman6]

There are many times in fiction, Star Trek or otherwise, that you have to accept that there are rules that make those fictional worlds work even if they aren't always directly, explicitly stated to the camera for the benefit of the audience.

Throughout DS9, there are many, many stories where changelings infiltrate not just the Federation, but the Romulans and Klingons, as well.

In order for those stories to work, given everything we know about how technology in Star Trek works, we have to accept that changelings can, in fact, make perfect copies of people. Otherwise, given the existence of incredibly sophisticated sensors and tricorders (among other devices) which are literally everywhere in the Star Trek universe, such infiltrations flatly could not happen at all.

We simply have to accept this.

However, this is not one of those times when we have only our assumptions (logical and consistent though they may be.)

The show actually friggin' tells us how changelings work directly and explicitly and we see it working again and again and again.

You’re making up something that isn’t specified in the shows prior.

Wrong. From, "The Adversary":

EDDINGTON
I wish the internal sensors were on-
line. It'd make it a lot easier to
track down the changeling.

ODO
I'm not sure sensors would help. If
you scan me when I'm a rock, you'd
detect a rock. I may not be able to
duplicate a humanoid perfectly, but
I'm guessing he can.

BASHIR
(confirming)
When we scanned "Ambassador Krajensky"
for tetryon particles, he registered
as human.

when Odo was turned into a human as punishment for killing the infiltrator on the Defiant it was made a clear line of dialog that Bashir could now detect organs, heart, lungs, etc.

Uh, yeah. Because Odo normally doesn't have those organs because he's not actively trying to imitate anyone (and probably couldn't even if he tried, as he isn't as skillful a changeling as the Founders.)

This means that it was a clear departure from what he was.

Yes, from what Odo was when he's being his normal self. Not when he's a Founder deliberately imitating someone on a spy mission.

it was never stated in any episode prior that the Changlings could imitate human or other species physical properties and biology.

Yes, changeling ability to create perfect copies is, in fact, established time and again across many episodes.

what you’re saying is an example of the showrunners not understanding the ds9 Changlings isn’t based on what you have seen on screen, but instead what you assumed and made absolute

Haha, no. It's the showrunners not doing the research. It's perfectly fine if you, as a fan, doesn't remember specific details from a 20 year old show.

It's not fine that the showrunners of a franchise don't do the research and break well-established rules, without which those old stories wouldn't have been able to exist.

 

[Crewman6]

But, as they ent to great lengths to show you, the changelings now maintain their form even when you take bits off. That was the whole point in making them undetectable.

And that's fine, since it's established old changelings' loose bits would revert back to goo and that dead changelings would, too. Those changes are in line with the old show and are perfectly fine.

I don't object to the idea of new changelings with new abilities. I object to them not understanding how the old changelings worked. With Riker literally saying, "Well, changelings never used to be able to mimic someone's insides!" Which is hilariously dumb and utterly wrong.

 

[Crewman6]

Odo was the only one that required a bucket, and even he gave up the bucket near the end of the series after he learned from experienced changelings how to morph properly.

True.

Yes, but these new ones could hold the form better than the old ones, and don't turn to goo when killed.

True.

Blood tests also didn't always work. Changeling Martok passed it fine.

True. (You're on a roll here!)

If that were true, Bashir wouldn't have been surprised to detect organs inside Odo when he was punished.

And then you blew it. Wrong. Bashir is surprised to detect organs in Odo because Odo wouldn't go around creating organs for no reason!

That proves absolutely zero.

Odo isn't actively on a spy mission, he doesn't NEED to mimic humanoid anatomy. He probably couldn't if he tried because he's not as good at shapeshifting as the Founders. When Odo's just being Odo, he doesn't have humanoid organs. Why is this so hard to grasp?

 

[Tuskin38]

Which is hilariously dumb and utterly wrong.

Not according to DS9.

And then you blew it. Wrong. Bashir is surprised to detect organs in Odo because Odo wouldn't go around creating organs for no reason!

That proves absolutely zero.

You've got no evidence of that.

 

[Crewman6]

You've got no evidence of that.

What the hell are you talking about???

 

[Racefuel]

So inconsistent Trek is inconsistent.

In other news, water wet, fire hot.

We’re arguing about one specific line in a show that sometimes has contradicted itself within the same episode in the past.

An oversight? Maybe, but you’re not in a position to do anything about it and neither am I

 

[Racefuel]

What the hell are you talking about???

You’re using Bashirs surprise at detecting organs as an attempt to prove your point when it requires exposition that wasn’t provided in the episode

 

[Tuskin38]

What the hell are you talking about???

Nothing in DS9 said the changelings created organs. They could have just been giving off false biological signals that read as organs.

 

[Racefuel]

He’s basing it off of a line of speculation and taking it as established fact and then using a point of established fact to speculate lol.

Granted everyone does it

 

[Crewman6]

Nothing in DS9 said the changelings created organs. They could have just been giving off false biological signals that read as organs.

Life must be amazing when you can just make up your own rules on a whim based on nothing while ignoring actual evidence.

Nothing on DS9 said Captain Sisko wasn't also secretly Santa Claus, so he could have been moonlighting as Santa in his spare time. There's no "evidence" saying otherwise.

You really have no clue what "evidence" is, do you? Or how facts work?

 

[Farscape One]

As mentioned before, "THE ADVERSARY" proved in dialogue that Changelings can mimic perfectly any lifeform they turn into. Odo said this and Bashir said this.

The difference with these Changelings in PICARD is that they stay as that lifeform when they are killed instead turning into a type of ash or simply exploding, like the Martok one. (In his case, his death was different because he was being subjected to constant Klingon disruptor fire until he just exploded.)

Having said that, PICARD season 3 did establish that after the Dominion War, everyone was scanned by sensors, which implies they found a way to scan for Changelings afterward. Like with any other technology or skill, they got better. Especially with so many looking for ways to detect them, it's not a stretch to say sensors simply got better at detecting Changelings... just like when Geordi said they couldn't detect Picard's Borg receivers over 30 years ago but could today.

 

[Crewman6]

He’s basing it off of a line of speculation and taking it as established fact and then using a point of established fact to speculate lol.

Granted everyone does it

There's zero speculation in what I said, I'm quoting directly from the actual show.

And then I'm extrapolating, based on how the rest of the show works and the obvious intent of the writers, that we should actually take them at face value and not just invent new theories out of our ass that have no basis in anything.

But you two just keep living in your own fantasy worlds, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone else to play in 'em.

 

[Ovation]

It's also been a Federation slowly turning in on itself, and perhaps rightly so. When you stand at a pinnacle with little in the way of real rivals you begin to only look upon yourself.

Two real life historical examples come to mind: 15th century China and 16th century Ottoman Empire. Each, after multiple interactions and/or explorations, concluded it was more advanced (“civilized”) than any other cultures it encountered, an so turned inward (China going so far as to explicitly ban exploration and dismantling the most advanced fleet on the planet—the Ottomans did not withdraw quite so much into isolation but minimized contact and exchange). After a few centuries, each was now as technologically inferior to the West as they had been superior prior to deliberate isolation, with devastating consequences on each.

 

[Crewman6]

As mentioned before, "THE ADVERSARY" proved in dialogue that Changelings can mimic perfectly any lifeform they turn into. Odo said this and Bashir said this.

The difference with these Chsngelings in PICARD is that they stay as that lifeform when they are killed instead turning into a type if ash or simply exploding, like the Martok one. (In his case, his death was different because he was being subjected to constant Klingon disruptor fire until he just exploded.)

Having said that, PICARD season 3 did establish that after the Dominion War, everyone was scanned by sensors, which implies they found a way to scan for Changelings afterward. Like with any other technology or skill, they got better. Especially with so many looking for wats to detect them, it's not a stretch to say sensors simply got better at detecting Changelings... just like when Geordi said they couldn't detect Picard's Borg receivers over 30 years ago but could today.

I literally would have had zero problem with Picard saying that, "After the war, our scanners got better and we could detect changelings. But, oh, crap, these new changelings are even better, so we can't detect them."

But that's not what the show said, sadly. That would have been the logical "fix" for any inconsistency. Instead, the show dumbly said that changelings could never create perfect copies, which we know to be untrue.

That's all.

 

[Racefuel]

There's zero speculation in what I said, I'm quoting directly from the actual show.

And then I'm extrapolating, based on how the rest of the show works and the obvious intent of the writers, that we should actually take them at face value and not just invent new theories out of our ass that have no basis in anything.

But you two just keep living in your own fantasy worlds, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone else to play in 'em.

The line in Adversary was speculative. They were assuming that this infiltrator was more skilled.

DS9, at no point, said conclusively that the Changlings were perfectly mimicking the people they were impersonating down to organ arrangement.

Re-read what was said, it was speculative, a discussion but not a presentation of facts

 

[jackoverfull]

the William Shatner novel The Return, there is a scene depicting the saucer section is vaporised in segments if i remember correctly

cut to piede a and beamed away.

 

[jackoverfull]

Unless it's being implied that there is something wrong with being Klingon, African or Asian, I don't see a problem here. It's the only way to quickly identify the person in question.

is it? I thought people had names.

The Doctor playfully says to Seven things like “How’s my favorite Borg today?”

Different contact and attitude: this was not a joke situation.

Also, Seven is quite often rude.

this is true.

 

[jaime]

I literally would have had zero problem with Picard saying that, "After the war, our scanners got better and we could detect changelings. But, oh, crap, these new changelings are even better, so we can't detect them."

But that's not what the show said, sadly. That would have been the logical "fix" for any inconsistency. Instead, the show dumbly said that changelings could never create perfect copies, which we know to be untrue.

That's all.

They couldn’t though. Mandatory haircuts would have found every changeling otherwise.

 

[ELCHawk]

I never give an episode a ten, but Holy Hell, I gave this one a ten. It was perfect. My only issue is how Jack got out of the Titan so easily, but that is just a nitpick. A few weeks ago, I said this is my favorite season of any Trek season. I am now saying this is the best season I have ever seen of any genre. Just fantastic!

 

[drt]

Wasn't it the TNG Technical Manual which first suggested that starship bridges are replaceable modules?

Yup. Sternbach I think. I could go downstairs and check if Zimmerman had any input, but I am lazy.

The idea was kicking around long before that. The first mention was the old fanon Enterprise Officer's Manual, published around 1980. It had the entire 1701 teardrop capable of acting as a lifeboat, and even called it the "bridge module". Drexler was one of the illustrators for that manual, so I can see it cropping up amongst the folks in the art department.