Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x04 - "Memento Mori"

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Wow.
The regression of the bridge design from SNW to TOS still tends to throw me out of the story (ditto for the shuttlecraft interior), but so many of the details of the set design are so right. In ways that DSC and Abramsverse set design aren't.

And this was not an easy story to get thrown out of. Not by a long shot. And having the only face-to-face encounter between a Human and a Gorn (in which the Human lived to tell about it) turn out to be a repressed memory works well for the story, and works well for canon.

And of course, having Una walk into sickbay (and survive without an immediate transfusion) with injuries that would have killed anybody else outright is perfect. She's Illirian. And at the pinnacle of Illirian society.[/I]

 

[Mudd]

Just rewatched this last evening. Helluva good show. Unfortunately, the apparition of the dead brother comes across as Creepy Smile Guy. A quibble.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Unfortunately, the apparition of the dead brother comes across as Creepy Smile Guy.

There is that. But it's not worth trashing the episode over. Certainly nothing like the gratuitous eye-scream invocations in DSC and PIC, that made me wish I could un-see them.

 

[Quantum21]

A tense and creepy episode, with some good performances and some nice vfx-camera angles. They managed to create some pretty alien starships for the Gorn, and this bodes well for the central villain the Gorn clearly are meant to be...take that TNG Ferengi.

My only issue is: the Gorn were not animalistic bad guys and the audience was led to believe in TOS that the Gorn had acted as the Federation would if its borders were penetrated, and planets colonized.

These Gorn can't be 1-dimensiinal can they?

The follow-up episode was of no help, because they were baby Gorn. So I remain curious as to their direction.

 

[Mudd]

My only issue is: the Gorn were not animalistic bad guys and the audience was led to believe in TOS that the Gorn had acted as the Federation would if its borders were penetrated, and planets colonized.

In fact, the Gorn in "Arena" were thoroughly awful.

Concerned by what they deemed incursions on their sphere of influence, they deliberately massacred civilians with no signs of remorse. At no point was there any accusation or even suggestion that human beings had physically harmed or displaced from their homes a single Gorn. Yet they made no attempt to communicate with what they must have recognized to be creatures with a similar level of sophistication to themselves.

It was McCoy who questioned the rightness of his own side's actions, and Kirk who in the end acted out of something better than his worst nature. The Gorn never did.

The Metrons, who knew more about both species than either did about the other, confirmed that the Gorn would not have shown mercy or understanding to the humans.

Gene Coon had this penchant and weakness for fuzzy symbolic plays involving more highly-evolved species smiling on human moral progress while drawing moral equivalencies with their adversaries that were not justified by story events. It looks like the creators of SNW are able to view those classic stories and see what's there rather than genuflecting to the "lessons" that the fannish subculture has generated from them over the decades.

 

[Quantum21]

In fact, the Gorn in "Arena" were thoroughly awful.

Concerned by what they deemed incursions on their sphere of influence, they deliberately massacred civilians with no signs of remorse. At no point was there any accusation or even suggestion that human beings had physically harmed or displaced from their homes a single Gorn. Yet they made no attempt to communicate with what they must have recognized to be creatures with a similar level of sophistication to themselves.

It was McCoy who questioned the rightness of his own side's actions, and Kirk who in the end acted out of something better than his worst nature. The Gorn never did.

The Metrons, who knew more about both species than either did about the other, confirmed that the Gorn would not have shown mercy or understanding to the humans.

Gene Coon had this penchant and weakness for fuzzy symbolic plays involving more highly-evolved species smiling on human moral progress while drawing moral equivalencies with their adversaries that were not justified by story events. It looks like the creators of SNW are able to view those classic stories and see what's there rather than genuflecting to the "lessons" that the fannish subculture has generated from them over the decades.

There were some post TOS non-Canon mentions where there was a dialogue between Gorn and the UFP, and I'd liked to think the misunderstanding was smoothed over, even if the Gorn were considered gruff and disagreeable.

By going this route, the producers are taking a chance on contradicting the ideal that Star Trek has that there is a rationale for everything, and while it may be wrong, making such one-dimensional judgements (especially of a whole species), is counter to not only previous Trek but even some early episodes of SNW which show some remarkably sane and measured conclusions.

So hopefully they won't go down the rabbit hole of creating a completely irredeemable race. Even the Borg aren't portrayed that way.

 

[Mudd]

The only thing they're in danger of contradicting right now is the Star Trek ideal that there is a reassuring and appealing solution to everything.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

There were some post TOS non-Canon mentions where there was a dialogue between Gorn and the UFP, and I'd liked to think the misunderstanding was smoothed over, even if the Gorn were considered gruff and disagreeable.

By going this route, the producers are taking a chance on contradicting the ideal that Star Trek has that there is a rationale for everything, and while it may be wrong, making such one-dimensional judgements (especially of a whole species), is counter to not only previous Trek but even some early episodes of SNW which show some remarkably sane and measured conclusions.

So hopefully they won't go down the rabbit hole of creating a completely irredeemable race. Even the Borg aren't portrayed that way.

These are just uneducated baby Gorn. There are all kinds of possibilities here. Maybe they are part of a rogue political terror group. Who knows?

 

[Quantum21]

These are just uneducated baby Gorn. There are all kinds of possibilities here. Maybe they are part of a rogue political terror group. Who knows?

We have to assume the adult Gorn are the ones manning the starships in this episode. La'an thinks they're irredeemable animals. She keeps chanting this mantra.

The writers of course, follow through with aggressive ship actions, Gorn willing to even sacrifice their own for the kill. These make for good, tense action stories, but if we want our star trek to mean more than this they can't just be bad guys.

The only thing they're in danger of contradicting right now is the Star Trek ideal that there is a reassuring and appealing solution to everything.

Not even Star Trek always has a happy ending, and even after solving problems these days there's often a lingering discomfort that the bad guys were a deeper, and continuing problem within their own ranks (much like the current issues in the US government ).

But what you're suggesting is often the byproduct of so much allegory in Trek. It comes off as a simple morality tale and it's why Trek has mostly abandoned them, replaced by showing rather than telling in series like Discovery to good effect.

SNW has revived the trope to a degree with its stories, and they've done it remarkably well, so I don't want there to be a glaring contradiction with the Gorn.

At this point, we have 2 excellent episodes, showing us 2 completely different things and there is time to expand on this story and my optimism remains high.

 

[jackoverfull]

La’an is obviously very biased on the matter and we’re seeing things through her eyes. Think of Kirk with the Klingons (and he even had had POSITIVE experiences with them, not only negative ones!), Shaw with the Borg and so on.

 

[Quantum21]

La’an is obviously very biased on the matter and we’re seeing things through her eyes. Think of Kirk with the Klingons (and he even had had POSITIVE experiences with them, not only negative ones!), Shaw with the Borg and so on.

She's a terrific character, so far she's superior to Number 1 in demonstrated ability. She's been more useful and resourceful. She does have this one bias, but it's understandable!

I hope to see a diplomatic episode one day with her in a tight dress uniform uncomfortably at attention for a Gorn peace delegation.

 

[Mudd]

La’an is obviously very biased on the matter and we’re seeing things through her eyes. Think of Kirk with the Klingons (and he even had had POSITIVE experiences with them, not only negative ones!), Shaw with the Borg and so on.

Yeah, being captured and hunted and used as breeding hosts kinda leaves a mark.

It's cute that fans and tie-in authors have made up these stories where "inside every Gorn there's an American dying to get out."*

But that's not what they were in their canon appearances and mentions (even Sisko's one reference is framed by Kirk's fight with one). So SNW is on reasonably solid ground.


*Not literally, of course. That would be gross.

 

[Quantum21]

Yeah, being captured and hunted and used as breeding hosts kinda leaves a mark.

It's cute that fans and tie-in authors have made up this story where the Gorn become domesticated, just lizards with Americans in them dying to get out.*

But that's not what they were in their canon appearances and mentions (even Sisko's one reference is framed by Kirk's fight with one). So SNW is on reasonably solid ground.


*Not literally, of course. That would be gross.

I'm not sure about the novels, but comic books and video games have regressed the Gorn to animals.

To me, the moment the Gorn Captain beamed down in a uniform after showing major tactical ability and deception meant this starship faring race was Starfleet's equal. Important distinction, especially in the 60s.

Offhand, I can even think of 1 or 2 ways around the breeding in other species to explain that satisfactorily.

 

[Sci]

I think something to bear in mind is that we have no idea what the relationship is between the Gorn ships we encountered in "Momento Mori" and the rest of Gorn society. For all we know, they could be pirates in the eyes of Gorn society, or a rogue faction of some sort. Similarly, we don't really know the relationship between the Gorn that La'an was victimized by as a child and the rest of Gorn society. They could have been agents of the Gorn government, but they also could have been the Gorn version of al-Qaeda. The Gorn are a true mystery on SNW right now.

 

[cooleddie74]

And the Gorn remain a mystery into TOS. Aside from the one ship and its commander encountered by Kirk and the Enterprise we know nothing about them other than they responded harshly to the Federation outpost on Cestus III and attacked it.

The Gorn Hegemony is just a name mentioned in passing in the ENT Era, a largely mysterious and unknown force in the early-to-mid 23rd century and barely even referenced in anything set after TOS. The perfect way to handle such a species. Make them just menacing and eerie enough to send shivers down the spines of our heroes but not seen so frequently they lose their impact as truly alien antagonists.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

We have to assume the adult Gorn are the ones manning the starships in this episode. La'an thinks they're irredeemable animals. She keeps chanting this mantra.

The writers of course, follow through with aggressive ship actions, Gorn willing to even sacrifice their own for the kill. These make for good, tense action stories, but if we want our star trek to mean more than this they can't just be bad guys.



Not even Star Trek always has a happy ending, and even after solving problems these days there's often a lingering discomfort that the bad guys were a deeper, and continuing problem within their own ranks (much like the current issues in the US government ).

But what you're suggesting is often the byproduct of so much allegory in Trek. It comes off as a simple morality tale and it's why Trek has mostly abandoned them, replaced by showing rather than telling in series like Discovery to good effect.

SNW has revived the trope to a degree with its stories, and they've done it remarkably well, so I don't want there to be a glaring contradiction with the Gorn.

At this point, we have 2 excellent episodes, showing us 2 completely different things and there is time to expand on this story and my optimism remains high.

It will take time for these things to develop is all I'm saying. Every episode is not going to be neatly wrapped up with big optimistic Federation bang at the end.

 

[Ovation]

Just watched this earlier today. Four for four in my rewatch. When the hell is the new season starting?

 

[cooleddie74]

June 15th if you're serious.

June 15th if you're being facetious and just can't wait for that date.

Either way I'm glad I could be of help. Or not.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Yeah, being captured and hunted and used as breeding hosts kinda leaves a mark.

It's cute that fans and tie-in authors have made up these stories where "inside every Gorn there's an American dying to get out."*


*Not literally, of course. That would be gross.

I'm an American who would love to get the hell out Gorn right now.

 

[Ovation]

June 15th if you're serious.

June 15th if you're being facetious and just can't wait for that date.

Yes.