Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x08 - "Surrender"

[jaime]

And Picard still addresses Worf as "Mister" even though he's a Captain now.

He is a surgeon.
Sort of.

 

[AntonyF]

Eight episodes in, with this entire season having bem designed purely to get the crew back together, which I would have no problem with if there weren't so many gaping holes in the plot. Their reunion doesn't feel earned because of the plethora of contrivances that we've had to swallow. And we're watched over 6 hours of film: TWOK, TSFS and TVH have a smaller run time than that. We'd probably have only seen Khan take control of the Reliant and celebrated Kirk's birthday at this stage if they took as long to get to the point.

This. Totally. These modern writers can't structure for shit. Also I get the impression - I'm not saying it is this, but it feels like this - that the episodes are almost written in isolation. And like a game of Chinese whispers they are writing a story they can only partially see from the episode before. The flow is erratic between episodes. It takes a lot of skill to write an arc vs episodes in isolation where logical structure doesn't need to follow week to week. And you get to episode eight and you thin when I boil it down... what has happened? It looks a lot, a lot of noise... but has it really progressed much story?

 

[jackoverfull]

Picard addressed new Data as commander.

Does this mean that the new Data is automatically a member of Starfleet with the rank of Lieutenant Commander? Does he continue his status as a member of Starfleet where he left off when he died in the Nemesis?

If the second Spock is still a captain the new Data can remain a Lt.Commander.

Check out the Starfleet uniform from Data when everyone gathers in the conference room. There are no rank pips on it. Why

They are all rogues at this point anyway, they could do away with uniforms altogether if they wanted to.
Also, just because they are rogue, they have no way to officially reinstate Data.

 

[vulcancicada]

This. Totally. These modern writers can't structure for shit. Also I get the impression - I'm not saying it is this, but it feels like this - that the episodes are almost written in isolation. And like a game of Chinese whispers they are writing a story they can only partially see from the episode before. The flow is erratic between episodes. It takes a lot of skill to write an arc vs episodes in isolation where logical structure doesn't need to follow week to week. And you get to episode eight and you thin when I boil it down... what has happened? It looks a lot, a lot of noise... but has it really progressed much story?

I kind of agree. I think this episode was the best written of the series and if you look at the credits, they are written by different people. Whereas with network television, as I understand it, there would be 2-3 main writers and a crew of writers collaboratively working on each episode and ensuring that characterisation, dialogue, and plot style were cohesive and consistent throughout the season/series. Even editing and lighting style seems to vary from episode to episode this season. I thought this episode was the best written of the season and the most true to the TNG spirit by far (thank you, Matt Okumura!) but, they don't put the same effort/budget into writing. Perhaps because of the pandemic and shooting the two seasons back to back, a lot of aspects of production suffered. (Seems like the script supervisors may have been taking bong tokes with Vadic between scenes - a lot of strange hairstyle/costume/continuity errors).

 

[vulcancicada]

Sexual promiscuity or homosexuality is how you knew people were mirror universe in DS9

Okay what about Jadzia in 'rejoined'? And Siddig and Robinson have admitted that they purposely played their parts as if they were romantically involved with each other, despite the producers refusing to follow that angle. I know it wasn't as open as NuTrek but I feel like DS9 had the most open sexuality of all that Trek era. I always had fun wondering about the ways in which Kira and Odo could have sex. Jadzia's early dating history with different species, Ferengi Oo-max, Jadzia and Worf injuring themselves having sex all the time. It was pretty out there sexually for the late nineties and I think paved the way for Discovery, which I haven't watched yet but have heard about.

I also will die on the cross that the TOS and DS9 mirror universe episodes were great. It's refreshing to see everyone not be all moralising all the time.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet.
But after the revelation about Vadic’s past.
Could it be that her smoking is actually for medicinal purposes?
We don’t know that it is tobacco she smokes.
But I get the impression that she may still be in constant agony from her torture and she smokes to dull the pain.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Something I haven’t seen mentioned yet.
But after the revelation about Vadic’s past.
Could it be that her smoking is actually for medicinal purposes?
We don’t know that it is tobacco she smokes.
But I get the impression that she may still be in constant agony from her torture and she smokes to dull the pain.

Yeah, I had that same thought. Patrick Stewart is a proponent of medicinal marijuana use, and he consumes cannabis edibles daily.

 

[jaime]

Okay what about Jadzia in 'rejoined'? And Siddig and Robinson have admitted that they purposely played their parts as if they were romantically involved with each other, despite the producers refusing to follow that angle. I know it wasn't as open as NuTrek but I feel like DS9 had the most open sexuality of all that Trek era. I always had fun wondering about the ways in which Kira and Odo could have sex. Jadzia's early dating history with different species, Ferengi Oo-max, Jadzia and Worf injuring themselves having sex all the time. It was pretty out there sexually for the late nineties and I think paved the way for Discovery, which I haven't watched yet but have heard about.

I also will die on the cross that the TOS and DS9 mirror universe episodes were great. It's refreshing to see everyone not be all moralising all the time.

Takes me back to the days of reading fanfic.
Unfortunately, DSC took the sexual angle to unpleasant places.
Which… still goes back to the nineties fanfic I guess.
Xenobiology in Trek fanfiction… it truly was the final frontier.

I think the sexuality of someone like the intendant in DS9s mirror episodes was more a reflection on ‘our’ universes Kira (who could t even have fun being rescued in a holosuite program of Jadzias choosing) rather than making a moral character judgement based on sexuality. Same is true for most of the characters — just divergent reflections of ‘our’ characters.

It is gonna be weird if it turns out Jack wasn’t so much conceived as implanted this season, mind you.

 

[David cgc]

Also I get the impression - I'm not saying it is this, but it feels like this - that the episodes are almost written in isolation. And like a game of Chinese whispers they are writing a story they can only partially see from the episode before.

I specifically noticed that with the new android having Data, Lore, (Altan?) Soong, and B4 all incarnate in him and speaking at the end of one episode, and then was specifically described as just Data and Lore with Soong and B4 just being memories and not personalities (along with the Omicron colonists and Lal, I suppose, Data's worse than my Mac still having files from five Macs ago). That kind of five-second retcon feels like a relic of an earlier time.

I am getting nervous that this season is started to play to type with live-action Streaming Trek and is just going to biff the ending after a strong start.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Okay what about Jadzia in 'rejoined'? And Siddig and Robinson have admitted that they purposely played their parts as if they were romantically involved with each other, despite the producers refusing to follow that angle. I know it wasn't as open as NuTrek but I feel like DS9 had the most open sexuality of all that Trek era. I always had fun wondering about the ways in which Kira and Odo could have sex. Jadzia's early dating history with different species, Ferengi Oo-max, Jadzia and Worf injuring themselves having sex all the time. It was pretty out there sexually for the late nineties and I think paved the way for Discovery, which I haven't watched yet but have heard about.

I also will die on the cross that the TOS and DS9 mirror universe episodes were great. It's refreshing to see everyone not be all moralising all the time.

I know well that people tried their best but all we actually got on the show was a kids because of "alien sci-fi stuff" and two actors telling us they camped it up. The actual show only shows heterosexual relationships for those characters.

It's ana awful pity Jadzia wasn't a bisexual character because it seemed to fit with the hints we got but sadly it was a different time.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Okay what about Jadzia in 'rejoined'? And Siddig and Robinson have admitted that they purposely played their parts as if they were romantically involved with each other, despite the producers refusing to follow that angle. I know it wasn't as open as NuTrek but I feel like DS9 had the most open sexuality of all that Trek era. I always had fun wondering about the ways in which Kira and Odo could have sex. Jadzia's early dating history with different species, Ferengi Oo-max, Jadzia and Worf injuring themselves having sex all the time. It was pretty out there sexually for the late nineties and I think paved the way for Discovery, which I haven't watched yet but have heard about.

I also will die on the cross that the TOS and DS9 mirror universe episodes were great. It's refreshing to see everyone not be all moralising all the time.

unfortunately it’s a horrible old cliche that bisexual=evil, and the ds9 mirror episodes do lean into this.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DepravedBisexual

 

[Tuskin38]

https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1644696530115346433

A photo of THE MOMENT we have all been waiting for for over 2 decades and the man who made it all happen.
@TerryMatalas

 

[jaime]

I specifically noticed that with the new android having Data, Lore, (Altan?) Soong, and B4 all incarnate in him and speaking at the end of one episode, and then was specifically described as just Data and Lore with Soong and B4 just being memories and not personalities (along with the Omicron colonists and Lal, I suppose, Data's worse than my Mac still having files from five Macs ago). That kind of five-second retcon feels like a relic of an earlier time.

I am getting nervous that this season is started to play to type with live-action Streaming Trek and is just going to biff the ending after a strong start.

To be fair, we started with “and a *lot* of Data” from the Alton hologram. The creation was always designed to settle into a personality, and he had stacked the hand in the favour of Data — the one with the greatest chance of success, the one he felt perhaps the most guilt about. He gave up his own immortality for Picard when he saw him sacrifice himself to help so many, and that same motivation could as easily apply to Data. But he left a slight element of chance, which is why the personality couldn’t stabilise — possibly because he couldn’t stop the emergent Lore personality with its desire for survival.
It’s an old theme for Trek. What *could* make the Data personality emerge as the overall template, was precisely that sense of being needed by his friends.
Social links, like in the Persona video games. Lol.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1644696530115346433

I'd love to see some straight on shots of that "tabletop".

 

[Tuskin38]

I'd love to see some straight on shots of that "tabletop".

Well I spotted a Titan-Class from STO. Now these graphics don't always indicate a ship will show up. Remember the Pioneer Class was on a graphic, but wasn't there.

 

[Cortez]

She’s a sadist because of her own torture. That’s been there since she first appeared. That’s why she acts how she does regarding the humans, she isn’t there to capture or kill, she is there to terrorise until she gets what she wants. She likes to play with her victims, the same way she was treated. It’s been there in dialogue and back story for episodes now.

Yes, you're right, Vadic is a sadist, but she's also on a mission where time is of the upmost importance. This has been stressed to her on several different occasions by her boss, a boss who she's fearful of. Beyond being a sadist she is also a genetically engineered super spy and has ascended to the position of commanding a ship and crew. This doesn't happen if you're an idiot but she's acting like an idiot here. There's many sadists in stories who have demonstrated high levels of competence and intelligence. The ultimate goal is to destroy Starfleet; to exact revenge on the entire organisation. Get on with it.

The only reason they took back the ship is because of something she overlooked and didn’t know about — Data. She’s nuts and has a variable ego. So she didn’t think she could be overcome by a starfleet crew — and she was right. Because Data was not a factor in her planning. Nor was the nebula being alive in her previous attempt.

I really don't want to have to go over the many plot holes associated with the whole Data and control of the ship scenario. I'll just mention one thing: she actually was overcome by a Starfleet crew when she decided to board the ship. She was quite clearly wrong if your assumption about her is correct. Another plot contrivance to have her be part of the away team. How did Picard and co. have any clue that she would be on it anyway? But again, it's a different episode

She wants Jack, not the ship, so *of course* he can come to the bridge. That’s what she *wants*. She also wants Jack to come voluntarily, and whatever is in him to wake up — she won’t or can’t just tell him, she wants his voluntary submission.

No, it actually makes zero sense wanting him to come up to the bridge and what type of fool allows him to just come up without any security search, and with a bomb? I have visions of one of her crew at the turbolift door checking people's ID's as they try to go up. It's daft stuff. The literally had no idea who was coming up.

I mean accuse it of being very similar to the Borg queen if you like, but it’s not a plot hole or contrivance, it’s character driven.

This is just stuff you have to pay attention to and hold in your memory week to week. Like the old days.
I have been paying attention.

 

[Caeruleus]

I don't think the producers ever thought of female bisexuality as something evil as you describe. It simply described female promiscuity, but not necessarily as a rule but as a frequency. 90% of porn actresses of big companies are bisexual. They wanted to show that promiscuity. Not bad at all. Only homophobes can call female bisexuality evil.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Well I spotted a Titan-Class from STO. Now these graphics don't always indicate a ship will show up. Remember the Pioneer Class was on a graphic, but wasn't there.

The tabletop graphics do say "Frontier Day", so who knows what they might end up showing us.

 

[The Emissary]

Pretty good episode and getting us closer to the big reveal about Jack.

I loved the return of Data and Worf's attempt at showing he missed the crew by nearly sending them decapitated heads of enemies he had slain over the years. :P I like to think he did send some to Quark just to low-key threaten him. :P

I was a bit confused on the Changelings getting killed via stabbing. It was a cool fight scene but wouldn't a dagger cutting through them be like Laas getting stabbed by the Klingon in "Chimera"? Speaking of Laas - can't Changelings survive the open vacuum of space? Oh well - we got a satisfying conclusion to Vadic.

All in all, I am excited to see how this all concludes.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard addressed new Data as commander.

Does this mean that the new Data is automatically a member of Starfleet with the rank of Lieutenant Commander? Does he continue his status as a member of Starfleet where he left off when he died in the Nemesis?

Check out the Starfleet uniform from Data when everyone gathers in the conference room. There are no rank pips on it. Why?

Right now, it's what they need to function aboard a starship. A clearly established chain of command and delegation of authority is essential to survival on a ship.

Regardless of the red tape they are treating Data as a part of the crew with his previous rank.