Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x08 - "Surrender"

[Tomalak]

Spiner should have let the season one finale been the end for him. He is the one who wanted Data to die in Nemesis. He died. It was unsatisfying. They tried to make it a little more touching in Picard season 1. Your mileage may vary on how that was accepted. But this? As touching as it might feel, this, in my opinion, it’s a cop out. If it hadn’t been 20 some years since his initial farewell. Had this been the follow up to Nemesis, I might have felt differently. But it feels like an excuse to get these seven characters, who I love, BTW, into the same room again. As a fan who grew up watching them week after week, that excites me to no end. But does it make good storytelling? Where sacrifices actually matter? I don’t think so.

It was obvious where it was going since they announced Spiner was in the cast. I wasn’t wild about it, but the execution worked for me.

I was glad they acknowledged Data’s choice in Season 1, and I don’t think this undermines that. He wasn’t sacrificing anything, he was simply making a choice not to continue in that form.

This isn’t the same Data, it’s an evolution of Data and Lore, the culmination of Soong’s work. He made a different choice.

I’m willing to go with it.

 

[Cjwilliams]

I really enjoyed this and am super relieved last week seems like a momentary dip into clunkiness and contrivances, for the most part made worth it by the payoff in this episode. The only thing detracting is the continued delay of the Jack reveal, but I think there’s a solid chance it will be worth the wait- if not for the actual explanation but the season’s pacing, allowing Troi to have a meaningful part of getting to the bottom of it.
Overall I thought the pacing was great, I was pleased to see Vadic dispatched, the tension worked, the Data/Lore stuff worked, and the conference room scene was a bit on-the-nose with the reminiscing around the table but whatever.
I feel with Vadic gone, the Data stuff behind us and the ship retaken the story has been properly streamlined for the last two episodes so we’re not juggling way too many threads going into the finale as previous seasons have done, to be tied up too quickly in the last hour.
And I’m going to reiterate my theory that if Jack isn’t a pah’wraith, I still think the big bad is going to be Armus. There is so much thematically this season about reconnecting to family/old friends/old enemies and Jack has some natural ability to “link” with others- I can see Armus wanting to use this ability to reintegrate and possibly destroy the Great Link. What this has to do with Frontier Day I don’t know but I can see that making some sense.

 

[gvn2fly]

I wish I liked this one more. At the moment I'm at a 5 and the season has been falling apart for me a bit since episode 6, The writers took from the good ol' Lost playbook of characters not answering direct questions just to pad out the mysteries. We see the changeling thugs with weapons the entire episode and of course when they come upon Raffi they are unarmed for some reason? Something about Vadic's thugs also feels cheap for me. They were basically just faceless and mindless henchman. Despite being changelings they just moved and looked slow and barely used their abilities. Matalas said we would learn why they were fine with killing other changelings, but unless I'm missing something we never did. Unless Vadic passing on her abilities to other changelings makes them ok with killing their kind for some reason?

I'm always happy to see Spiner, but I think Data basically being back again takes a lot away from that beautiful season 1 finale scene. But, if they are aiming to bring everyone together for this season they need to have Data I suppose.

The Will / Deanna scene was good and it was nice to see everyone together for the briefing room scene but those were really the only highlights for me. The whole hostage/standoff with Vadic just felt like the show spinning its wheels for a bit again. These people hate the federation and have a plan in place to destroy it..why not just immediately kill everyone on the bridge (like they did with the rest of the crew) and hunt for Jack? He has nowhere to go. So was everyone but the bridge crew killed? It didn't seem like anyone really cared.

As a villain I don't think Vadic ended up being that great. Her entire arc was to kidnap Jack on behalf of someone unknown for reasons unknown.

 

[Finn]

One thing I noticed was Worf's body language in the conference room scene. He seems stiff and uncomfortable when Data enters, and doesn't get a moment with him (if you will). What's up with that?

Maybe Worf lost at Poker against Data the last time they all played, and he owed Data....something.

 

[Tomalak]

Maybe Worf lost at Poker against Data the last time they all played, and he owed Data....something.

He’s just guilty about what happened to Spot after Nemesis…

 

[dinzy]

It was obvious where it was going since they announced Spiner was in the cast. I wasn’t wild about it, but the execution worked for me.

I was glad they acknowledged Data’s choice in Season 1, and I don’t think this undermines that. He wasn’t sacrificing anything, he was simply making a choice not to continue in that form.

This isn’t the same Data, it’s an evolution of Data and Lore, the culmination of Soong’s work. He made a different choice.

I’m willing to go with it.

And this Data makes sense. He is the backup copy of all of Data's memories, not some mystical twin pulled from the quantum ether.

But why Did Data's memories win? Was it because Lore's personality didn't value his own memories or because Lore had less time powered on, and hence fewer memories?

I don't really care as I am happy with this Data and hated all the other bullshit.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

So the "big bad" is either the Borg (very likely) or Species 8472. Both make sense considering what Vadic said to Seven, given that she was only liberated from the Collective because of their invasion of our realm.

 

[cooleddie74]

Not every upgrade is perfect

This one's like a software upgrade for an old Zune.

 

[Macintosh]

It was obvious where it was going since they announced Spiner was in the cast. I wasn’t wild about it, but the execution worked for me.

I was glad they acknowledged Data’s choice in Season 1, and I don’t think this undermines that. He wasn’t sacrificing anything, he was simply making a choice not to continue in that form.

This isn’t the same Data, it’s an evolution of Data and Lore, the culmination of Soong’s work. He made a different choice.

I’m willing to go with it.

Precisely. This isn't the same Data that we saw from "Encounter at Farpoint" through to Nemesis. As Altan Soong himself said, this being contains "an awful lot of Data", but it's not the same individual – even if he has the same memories. It's a new consciousness, combining parts of Data, Lore, B4, Altan Soong, Lal... it's much more than just the straight "reincarnation" Picard had. It's more like a Trill symbiont being transplanted into a new host. It's a new Data. I'm wondering if by the end of the season he might change his name to reflect his new existence, becoming "Soong" or something.

 

[Macintosh]

So the "big bad" is either the Borg (very likely) or Species 8472. Both make sense considering what Vadic said to Seven, given that she was only liberated from the Collective because of their invasion of our realm.

The only thing that makes me doubt the Borg is that the Thing Behind The Door seems to use red as a colour scheme, and surely for the Borg it would be green.

 

[Tomalak]

And this Data makes sense. He is the backup copy of all of Data's memories, not some mystical twin pulled from the quantum ether.

But why Did Data's memories win? Was it because Lore's personality didn't value his own memories or because Lore had less time powered on, and hence fewer memories?

I don't really care as I am happy with this Data and hated all the other bullshit.

Data said it himself - he got all the love so his memories mean more to him than Lore’s empty trophies of conquest.

It was a nice classic Trek message that love conquers all!

 

[The Commander]

I was glad they acknowledged Data’s choice in Season 1, and I don’t think this undermines that. He wasn’t sacrificing anything, he was simply making a choice not to continue in that form.

And why would he? Being trapped in a simulation for eternity is not that great...

 

[cooleddie74]

Seeing Lore "Thanos'ed" into oblivion was both satisfying and deeply sad. But if any Soong or their creation deserved it then it's got to be Lore.

 

[David cgc]

And why would he? Being trapped in a simulation for eternity is not that great...

I don't know, Picard seemed surprisingly sanguine about the prospect of a digital afterlife when he woke up after he died and was under the impression that he was some kind of hologram based on the original Picard.

 

[Cjwilliams]

The only thing that makes me doubt the Borg is that the Thing Behind The Door seems to use red as a colour scheme, and surely for the Borg it would be green.

I feel the extent of which the Borg would be involved would be that Jack inherited something from Picard that allows him to connect with others like the Collective but without actually being a Borg. I agree the idea of something Borg-related actually being the villain of the season is doubtful.
It was odd however that they seemed to confirm it’s less just an ability he has and more that something alive is actually inside him. Troi called it ancient and weak. I feel like it’s Armus-related or a pah’wraith.

 

[cooleddie74]

The red glowing eyes have me leaning more towards the Pah'Wraith.

 

[Macintosh]

I don't know, Picard seemed surprisingly sanguine about the prospect of a digital afterlife when he woke up after he died and was under the impression that he was some kind of hologram based on the original Picard.

Easy to be sanguine when you've just dodged death and discovered you're not consigned to oblivion after all. Twenty years in the same simulated room with nothing to read might alter his opinion.

 

[The Commander]

Spiner should have let the season one finale been the end for him. He is the one who wanted Data to die in Nemesis. He died. It was unsatisfying. They tried to make it a little more touching in Picard season 1. Your mileage may vary on how that was accepted. But this? As touching as it might feel, this, in my opinion, it’s a cop out. If it hadn’t been 20 some years since his initial farewell. Had this been the follow up to Nemesis, I might have felt differently. But it feels like an excuse to get these seven characters, who I love, BTW, into the same room again. As a fan who grew up watching them week after week, that excites me to no end. But does it make good storytelling? Where sacrifices actually matter? I don’t think so.

Well...his main reason was his age. Now they have found a way to deal with it. And the new version of Data is much more human than the old version could have ever been.

 

[Tomalak]

And why would he? Being trapped in a simulation for eternity is not that great...

Well exactly. His choice not to continue honoured his sacrifice in Nemesis. He had no desire to exist for eternity as a chip In a box.

I think some people really rejected that on a philosophical level because they thought it was an endorsement of suicide or assisted dying. I don’t think they’re wrong, there was clearly a parallel with people in comas or ‘locked in’ syndrome. I’m comfortable with Data making an informed choice.

 

[Markonian]

I’m sad that T’Veen won’t be part of a Seven-led Star Trek: Legacy. Unless they’ll include an episode where she can be revived?

In appearances earlier this season, it felt like I was watching Marina Spirits instead of Commander Troi. But I got Deanna vibes this time round.

I’d love if we could get to see everyone wear the standard Starfleet uniform by the end of the show.