Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

This is also true.

 

I thought 2017 was over.

 

Nothing is ever “over” in Trek. I’m sure there was a memo.

 

There are no great episodes in TNG S1. There are a couple of half-decent episodes, but nothing great. The characters are mostly cardboard cutouts, and it features embarrassments like "The Naked Now," "Justice," "Angel One," and the absolute worst episode of the entire franchise, the piece of white supremacist trash that is "Code of Honor."

PIC S2 has problems. Its most fundamental problem is that it ditches Soji when the Soji/Jean-Luc ersatz grandfather/granddaughter relationship should have been the emotional cornerstone of the series after S1. It has other flaws, such as arbitrarily writing characters out prematurely and finding excuses for contractually-obligated appearances for their actors, and subplots that go nowhere and contribute nothing to the overall thematic content or plot. But it also features a level of depth and insight in its depiction of Jean-Luc Picard and his longstanding commitment issues that TNG never matched. Its depiction of the complex relationships between Agnes and Jean-Luc, Cris and Teresa, Cris and Agnes, and Raffi and Seven, put it lightyears ahead of the two-dimensional cardboard cutouts of TNG S1, ENT S2, or VOY S6-7.

No, it meandered far, far more. PIC S2 had a couple sub-plots that went nowhere and did nothing. ENT S2 had more than 20 entire episodes that went nowhere and did nothing. And nothing in PIC S2 is as bad as "Precious Cargo" or "Bounty."

VOY S6-7 were full of cardboard cutouts and arbitrary creative decisions, and the action was no longer novel enough to cover up for the under-developed characters.

Nope. DIS S2 has its problems, but the characters are written with far more insight, sensitivity, and complexity than VOY S6-7, ENT S2 (or almost all of ENT, frankly), or TNG S1. It is easily on par with DS9 S2 or S3. And it gave us Anson Mount as Pike and Ethan Peck as Spock.

No. As others have noted, PIC S3 was locked and finishing up filming only just as PIC S2 started. Far, far too late to make meaningful changes.

Showrunner Terry Matalas has said several times that he's had the story for PIC S3 in mind for many years, long before he ever got the offer to join the PIC staff.

False. There are multiple stories happening in PIC S2 -- Q facing his newfound mortality by deciding to help Jean-Luc find happiness; Jean-Luc confronting his long-suppressed trauma to finally open himself up to a committed relationship; Cris falling in love with Teresa and realizing that he feels more fulfilled fighting for justice in a deeply flawed society than he does maintaining a mostly-just society; Agnes confronting her self-loathing and need for connection; the Borg finally learning, through their connection with Agnes, how to let go of the desire to dominate and instead embrace consensual connection; the Federation and the Borg overcoming their history to join together as allies; Kore rebelling against the false "love" and abuse inflicted upon her by Adam; Jean-Luc's ancestor Rene confronting her mental health issues; Jean-Luc processing his relationship with his father; and Yvette's relationship to Maurice and Jean-Luc. Now, some of these stories work better than others, but they're all part of the season.

And I'm far more intrigued by most of them than I am by a hundred variations on "I'm trying to tech the tech but the tech is down to 20%!"

There were no great episodes of VOY S6 or S7. There are some fun episodes, most of which Robert Picardo carries on his back through sheer charm, but there is not a single episode in either season that rises to the level of quality to which I would ascribe the word great. Same thing with ENT S2. There are some fun or decent episodes, but there is no greatness there.

There are no episodes on par with truly astonishing episodes of television both within and beyond the Star Trek franchise, such as "Forget Me Not" (Star Trek: Discovery); "Remembrance" or "Et in Arcadia Ego, Parts I & II" (Star Trek: Picard); "You're Welcome," "A Hole in the World," "Underneath," or "Not Fade Away" (Angel); "Out of Gas," "The Message," or "Objects in Space" (Firefly); "Father's Day," "The Girl in the Fireplace," "Human Nature/The Family of Blood," "Blink," "Utopia," "Midnight," "Turn Left," "The Eleventh Hour," "Amy's Choice," "Vincent and the Doctor," "A Christmas Carol," "The Doctor's Wife," "The Day of the Doctor," or "Listen" (Doctor Who); "Let Barlet Be Bartlet," "What Kind of Day Has It Been," "Noël," "Somebody's Going to Emergency, Somebody's Going to Jail," "17 People," "Two Cathedrals," "Game On," "The Long Goodbye," or "Twenty-Five" (The West Wing); "Winter is Coming," "Baelor," "The North Remembers," "Blackwater," "The Bear and the Maiden Fair," "The Rains of Castamere," "The Watchers on the Wall," "Hardhome," "Mother's Mercy," "Battle of the Bastards," "The Winds of Winter," or "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" (Game of Thrones); "Surprise/Innocence," "Becoming, Parts I & II," "The Wish," "Bad Girls," "The Prom," "Graduation Day, Parts I & II," "Hush," "Who Are You?," "Restless," "Fool for Love," "The Body," "Forever," "The Weight of the World," "The Gift," "Once More, With Feeling," "Seeing Red," "Grave," "Selfless," or "Conversations with Dead People" (Buffy the Vampire Slayer); "Hyde Park Corner," "Scientia Potentia Est," "Assassins," "Gloriana," "Beryl," "Vergangenheit," "Paterfamilias," "Mystery Men," "Margaretology," "Tywysog Cymru," "Moondust," "Gold Stick," "Fairytale," "Fagan," "The Hereditary Principle," "48:1," "Avalanche," or "War" (The Crown); "Good News About Hell," "What's for Dinner?," or "The We We Are" (Severance); "Dear Billy" (Stranger Things); "Celebration," "Shit Show at the Fuck Factory," "I Went to Market," "Which Side Are You On?," "Nobody is Ever Missing," "Hunting," or "Tern Haven" (Succession); "House's Head/Wilson's Heart" (House, M.D.).... I could go on.

Greatness was, sadly to say, far out of Voyager's and Enterprise's reach. The only truly great episode they ever achieved between them was "Twilight" (ENT).

I agree that John de Lancie should have gotten more screentime. But PIC S2 was still better than most of VOY or ENT.

Do TV shows do test screenings? I've only ever heard of that for films.

That is a false characterization of the end of PIC S1. Jean-Luc died and was resurrected in a synthetic body. He is the same person, the same character, and experienced continuity of consciousness.

1) There is no network. Star Trek: Picard streams on Paramount+ rather than airing on CBS or the CW. If there had been interference, it would have been from CBS Studios, not from Paramount+.

2) I am aware of nobody indicating CBS Studios interfered in the production of PIC S2. The COVID-19 pandemic interfered with the production of PIC S2, however.

3) I don't think PIC S2 or S3 are reactions to PIC S1. I think what it boils down to is that Terry Matalas has a fundamentally different creative vision than Michael Chabon, and quite understandably wanted to make PIC reflect his creative vision when he was hired upon Chabon's decision to leave. I don't happen to agree with parts of his creative vision, but that doesn't make his vision a "reaction" to Chabon's. Different artists are allowed to have different interests without it being an adversarial thing.

Tell me you have never managed a television program with a production budget of tens of millions of dollars without telling me you have never managed a television program with a production budget of tens of millions of dollars. "Scripts can be quickly rewritten."

Again, different writers can just have different creative visions without one being a reaction to the other.

There are many possible reasons he could have changed his mind about a TNG reunion, it is physically impossible for the decision to bring back the TNG cast to have occurred as a reaction to the fan reception of PIC S2 because it was already written and almost done shooting before PIC S2 aired, and 86% of critics give a positive rating to PIC S1. So I think this assumption has no evidence to support it.

The fact that you would think it funny that people trying hard to produce quality work might change their minds about a creative decision after fans are disappointed is very mean-spirited of you. Artists give their all to make good work and they don't want to displease an audience, even the ones who believe they must not compromise their creative vision in spite of audience reaction. You do not comport yourself like a kind person when you say things like that.

Or they just caught the Omnicron variant of the Augment Virus.

 

Just like when the TOS movies killed Spock and replaced him with a copy?

 

Okay, since we're in the past, I'll say what I said before:

They probably went through a lot of trial-and-error trying to fix the Agument Virus. They would not be okay with looking like smooth heads for almost 100 years. There would be multiple attempts to get ahead of a really smart virus. They'd do whatever they could to fix it. The Disco Klingons were an over-correction.

When they finally found the right way to cure the Augment Virus, circa TMP, everyone jumped in.

 

I find it very easy to believe the response to season 1 sparked a course correction. But Terry Matalas was pulled of MACGYVER season 4 mid-season to come to PICARD before season 1 had even aired.

But Goldsman had no existing plan for season 2, and always outranked Matalas, so he would have signed off on everything.

FWIW, pretty sure that's from "I, Mudd". TOS is my third favorite Star Trek series. I'm a major fan of "Trials and Tribble-ations" and "In a Mirror, Darkly" for their revisiting TOS visual continuity.

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I don't think in September 2021 they'd have wanted to take on the Covid precautions of running it through a test audience. Season 2 would have greatly benefited from tighter editing and some ADR (looping in dialog to clear things up). As the showrunner, that was Akiva Goldsman's responsibility. They also had months before airing to try and do pick ups during the production of season 3. On the Blu-ray, it's very easy to see where they did do green screen inserts and ADR, so I'd hate to see what condition it was in before trying.

I'm sure part of season 3 reflects Terry Matalas and his 12 MONKEYS collaborators' response to season 2. Christopher Monfette seems much more proud of season 3 than season 2 on Twitter.

I think the shit hit the fan with Covid and budget restrictions mid season. Part of season 2's problems root from terrible ideas, others are just bad luck and having to keep the trains running even if they couldn't lay down the track correctly.

Until all of season 3 airs, this rumor can't be ruled out.

It's alleged by someone in media in Toronto claiming to have friends working on the show that when crew familiar with past Star Trek brought up canon issues, they were fired.

 

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Well season 3 is getting better reviews fans and even critics. Again if you enjoyed the last season with picard being stuck in the chateau learning about his moms suicide more power to you but I don't enjoy stories like that especially over multiple episodes. This is Star Trek not Dawson's Creek. The 3rd season is getting much better Input from everyone compared to the last 2 seasons. That's a fact. This season is proving to be far more popular at this point. You cant deny that. Will it continue to be good? Let's hope so but I'm keeping any excitement grounded until we get more episodes.

 

They’ve never done that before, why start now?

Sounds like bullshit. Season 1 was full of canon connections.

 

Until it's in canon I won't buy it. Did it create purple klingons? I never saw a purple klingon until discovery.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

@The Old Mixer and @KennyB, I love you guys. That's why I'm not going to say what I want to.

 

So what? IDIC, my friend.

Star Trek is about humanity and it's adventure. Picard Season 2 explored that.

Who is denying it? No one. I stated my preference and that's it. Thus far the people who supposedly are in love with Season 3 keep going back to seasons 1 and 2 to poison the well.

Enjoy what you like!

I've definitely head canoned worse things.

Me too. That doesn't make it the only way to tell a Star Trek story. It's absurdist to reduce it to just visual history. But, then, I see a lot of surface level feels around fandoms so why am I surprised.

Who cares? Their work will speak for themselves, not the self-congratulatory hype machine.

 

Yup. We are going back to those 2 seasons because we are sad that they were wasted with rubbish. Everyone wants the tng crew back not what we got.

 

Then you are not longer satisfied and your argument that Season 3 is better is invalid. There is no contentment there and I am past taking such complaints seriously about Season 1 and 2. If Season 3 were as great as purported there would be no need to bash the past two seasons. That it gets repeated shows how hate filled this has become.

The quote "no one hates Star Trek like Star Trek fans" feels more true today than ever before, and after enduring online discussion for the past ten years with fans that is saying something.

By the way, not "everyone" since there are people on this forum who wanted the Picard Season 1 and 2 crew back for Season 3. So, again the TNG reunion is not for "everyone."

 

Doesn't sound like it to me. PIC2 writing

 

If you don't enjoy psychologically-based episodes, that's certainly your prerogative as a viewer. But that doesn't make them bad, and it doesn't make them not a valid part of the Star Trek storytelling paradigm. Hell, the very first episode, "The Cage," was an introspective story about how the trauma of losing crewmembers in an earlier crisis was giving Captain Pike an existential crisis and making him want to leave Starfleet. Some of TOS's greatest episodes were intensely character-driven stories were personal relationships took the forefront and plot took a back-burner, like "Journey to Babel" or "The City on the Edge of Forever" or "The Conscience of the King." "Farewell" and the entire Jean-Luc/Yvette arc in PIC S2 is very much in the tradition of episodes like that.

Give me that stuff any day over VOY-style or ENT-style "tech the tech to make the CGI gas cloud go swish" crap.

 

Some people like "pew pew"..."Swish!" over character based drama and issues oriented stories.

 

True. Some people do have bad taste.

 

Well, over simpleminded and rote "character drama and issues oriented stories," anyway.