Better than the Devil in TAS.
Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 3x09 - "Trusted Sources"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Given that the PD is open to a level of interpretation (and apparently gets revised over time), it could be that Picard was considered to have made the right call almost two decades ago, but a later review of the situation had the next generation of higher ups going, "You know...maaaaybe we should see how they're doing."
There was nothing in the episode that even hinted that the Ornarans and Brekkians had warp technology. But I will say it again: that doesn’t matter. They were not Federation members, and they didn’t want Picard messing around in their affairs. And Picard had no choice but to comply, because he had no authority to do otherwise.
The fact they were space capable, had transporters, were contacted by the Federation that forbids all contact with non-warp capable civilizations, and had enough regular commerce with their small number of ships that they had an entirely dependent economy based on shipping.
Which means the burden of proof is pretty hard on the opposite.
Can you give a single piece of evidence that they weren't warp capable? Other than the fact they didn't have to be for the plot to work?
The situation on those planets, think of it like this.
Had the Enterprise not been there, the Sanction would have blown up, along with all the felicium. That was their last functional ship, so the Ornarans would have had to go through the withdrawal anyway, since no new shipments were coming.
All those troubles they went through would have happened either way. Picard made the only choice he could because, as he said in "Symbiosis", the moment the Brekkians agreed to give them the shipment, Picard's hands were tied.
Had the Enterprise not been there, the Sanction would have blown up, along with all the felicium. That was their last functional ship, so the Ornarans would have had to go through the withdrawal anyway, since no new shipments were coming.
All those troubles they went through would have happened either way. Picard made the only choice he could because, as he said in "Symbiosis", the moment the Brekkians agreed to give them the shipment, Picard's hands were tied.
Sorry, but that’s all supposition. And you keep glossing over the part where I say that it doesn’t matter whether they had warp drive or not.
Just because they were ferrying between the two planets, which were right next to each other, doesn't mean they were warp capable. Just impulse is what is used inside a system. (For context, remember on DS9's "BY INFERNO'S LIGHT" that Dax warned Kira that going to warp inside the system is dangerous.)
Also, keep in mind that just because they had transporter technology doesn't automatically mean they have warp capability. A race can be backward in some things but more advanced in others. (As an example, look at the Vidiians. They don't have transporters, but their medical technology completely outshines Starfleet, according to dialogue in "PHAGE". By necessity, they got better with medical technology.) Having transporter was likely a necessity for more efficient transporting of the goods.
The Prime Directive has multiple uses, with non-interference with a less advanced world (no warp drive, for instance) being one example. Another, more often used reason, is not interfering in the internal affairs of another world. We saw that reason used multiple times in TNG... the ending of "The Hunted", the Klingon Civil War in "Redemption", not being able to take Ramsey and his people in "Angel One".
In this situation, if Picard gave those coils, he would have altered the natural course of events there because it would have allowed the Brekkians to continue to abuse the Ornarans with those ships fixed, instead of it stopping since the Sanction was destroyed. And if he told them what the Brekkians were doing, same thing, but probably worse because I guarantee they would have gone to war with the Brekkians. And if he gave the medical substitute for the withdrawals, that would also be interfering because it was an unknown technology (or medicine, in this case) that they didn't develop on their own.
In other words, Picard had only one choice given the situation, and he made it.
SB80 is so far behind, they still have the TNG communicators
Guess who's back!
The two darker things on top of the saucer that look like extensions of the pylons from some angles are torpedo launchers
The freshly declassified fully automated Texas class NA-01 Aledo
I was really worried it's a 31 ship, glad it isn't
But is it REALLY automated, or is there a captive Aenar piloting it remotely?
FWIW, put me in the camp that backs Picard's decision in Symbiosis. Camp Crusher was wrong then and still is now.
Good episode. They misrepresented Symbiosis a bit, and everyone turned on Mariner too easily, but neither really detracted from my enjoyment. As plot necessitation stuff goes, it was not really egregious for me. But YMMV.
Someone mentioned upthread they thought the pie eating contest was a Breaking Bad thing. Interesting thought. Though I think if it was anything, it was "Stand By Me." Wil Wheaton connection + the implied irony if no one standing by Mariner.
Good episode. They misrepresented Symbiosis a bit, and everyone turned on Mariner too easily, but neither really detracted from my enjoyment. As plot necessitation stuff goes, it was not really egregious for me. But YMMV.
Someone mentioned upthread they thought the pie eating contest was a Breaking Bad thing. Interesting thought. Though I think if it was anything, it was "Stand By Me." Wil Wheaton connection + the implied irony if no one standing by Mariner.
I liked the episode. But once they introduced the archeologist and she contacted Mariner you knew we were headed to this (plus the Indiana Jones esq sequence from the trailers) it was just about how we got there.
And honestly, I don’t know how Mariner could go back to the Cerritos. Especially knowing not even her friends or Girlfriend believed her. I mean, of course she will. I just hope they push the storyline to next season. Let it breathe.
The pie eating stuff was hilarious, especially Rutherford. Loved that the sign saying it was canceled was paper and just taped to the door. Cool to see the Breen again.
It did feel a bit too much of a part 1 of 2 though. Like, there is a lot still open ended.
8/10
And honestly, I don’t know how Mariner could go back to the Cerritos. Especially knowing not even her friends or Girlfriend believed her. I mean, of course she will. I just hope they push the storyline to next season. Let it breathe.
The pie eating stuff was hilarious, especially Rutherford. Loved that the sign saying it was canceled was paper and just taped to the door. Cool to see the Breen again.
It did feel a bit too much of a part 1 of 2 though. Like, there is a lot still open ended.
8/10
A
Amaris
Guest
True. She's getting better at it, but she still needs to sort her own feelings out, I think.
Still, I loved the relationship, it was adorable.
Wasn't your mole on the other side?
I love that it was spelled "Pie Eatin'."
That’s something that was first mentioned in TMP, they routinely used warp drive in system in TOS and it was largely ignored later, with a few exceptions such as “Inferno’s Light”. Ironically enough, Enterprise used warp drive in system on two occasions in “Symbiosis”.
Well her friends DID believe her.
Jennifer and Mariner is dead, though, which led to some anger on certain LGBT forums as well as certain reviewers.
But Jennifer/Mariner was never meant to be Endgame, I suspect.
Why would the LGBT community (or anyone, for that matter) have a problem with Mariner and Jennifer breaking up? Is it unrealistic that, given that level of distrust, a romantic relationship of any kind is over?
The Sanction was not the last functional ship. They had other ships available.
ROMAS: Once our freighters are fixed, everything'll be back to normal.
PICARD: No.
T'JON: No?
PICARD: The coils stay here.
ROMAS: What about our freighters?
PICARD: You want to repair them, you'll have to learn to do it yourselves.
T'JON: We can't.
ROMAS: If you don't help us, our ships will soon be inoperable.
PICARD: Quite possibly.
The Prime Directive is for Starfleet, not for civilian ships. So, a Federation civilian has more latitude in how they make contact with a little known or not known at all civilization.
DATA: Mister Ramsey is correct, Counsellor. The Odin was not a starship, which means her crew is not bound by the Prime Directive. If he and the others wish to stay here, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. ("Angel One")
Because we're still mostly used to getting tossed crumbs in terms of representation when it comes to mainstream IP, then being told we should be grateful for what we got when those crumbs get swept away. There have definitely been times when I've done my share of table flipping over it (looking at you, Marvel comics), but I really don't think it's warranted here. Firstly, the story arc is still in progress and we don't know if Jennifer and Mariner are actually toast; I don't think them getting back together is out of the realm of possibility anymore than Mariner forgiving her mom is. But even if that relationship is really most sincerely dead:
- Mariner still exists. She's arguably the lead of the show (and if not the lead per se, she's certainly the loudest and most visible of the four main characters) and she's, at the least, been confirmed as bi on-screen. That's hardly incidental rep, whether or not she's actively in a relationship with anyone.
- I enjoy Jennifer and Mariner together, but it's been shown already that this is a messy relationship. Jennifer and Mariner do not communicate honestly (Mariner not confiding in Jennifer about what she actually wants out of their relationship, Jennifer leaving Mariner in the dark about the details of the "salon" + using her as an attack dog against friends she can't stand up to herself). It's the kind of relationship that's cute on the surface, but wouldn't weather a moment of doubt very well at all. So nothing about the breakup comes across as cheap or dishonest, imo; the writers did the work setting up the lack of a stable foundation.
- There's so much UST between Mariner and Petra, I would not be surprised if we see either a rebound relationship or no-strings attached FWB there. And I'm fine with that - perfect, wholesome queer rep is some people's cup of tea, but give me the ill-advised, imperfect relationships too.
TL;DR: I don't see a lot of reason to get terribly upset about the break-up in terms of queer representation because I don't see anything cheap, baiting, or subtractive in it, and the story isn't even done yet besides.
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Makes you wonder if we're going to see a regression in Mariner because of all this. Inevitably she's going to end up back in Starfleet. But the repercussions of being shunned by her mother and crew are going to be long lasting. Her emotional walls are going to be back up in full force.
Which is all understandable, but sorely misplaced here in this case. Why? One, we're dealing with a plot device that has to happen in order for Mariner to leave Starfleet, which was clearly telegraphed in an earlier episode. And, two, Mariner is NOT the best representative for ANY sort of relationship, since she has trust and commitment issues, which has been established in previous issues. And, as an aside, wanting a monogamous relationship is an outlier, not the norm, since monogamy in both gay and straight relationships are on the decline, so you can imagine that committed relationships in THE FUTURE is seen as both "traditional" and "rare".
still, they are not *destroying* the planet: they have landing parties occupied in doing *something* there. And there can be only up to a few thousands on those three ships.
Why would the two technologies be connected?
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