If Mariner was a man, we’d all hate her.

[fireproof78]

Before we get into that: Vulnerability is a necessary component of any protaganist. If they don't have a soft side or flaws then we can't relate to them.

Speak for yourself please. I don't need someone to be vulnerable to be able to relate to them.

The textbook definition of a Mary Sue is a self insert character of the author with no flaws.

Who is she a self insert of? She also has tons of flaws.

Indeed. A mangled word now that has lost it's original definition.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Mariner would be a poor protagonist as both a male or a female. What I am saying is that because Mariner is the quintessential "strong female lead", she gets a pass. The fact that she is female makes her superficially more "vulnerable" than she would be if she were a man with the same characteristics, but were she a man, we would probably take an instant disliking to him.

And so fixing Mariner is the same whether she is a man or a woman either way: she should not have begun as an already self-possessed, fully actualized protagonist with no perceptable arc. Remember: Among her group of friends Mariner is the strongest, smartest and cockiest, and has been since episode one. Everything revolves around her. That is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.

With your points, the key thing is that you are stating issues with the character but not expanding upon that to develop the point - add a bit of colour to your point and some detail and I think more will engage on the level you are hoping for as it will be clearer what the evidence behind the point is.

A protagonist can have a journey by going on adventures. Doesn't necessitate character change. Batman is still Batman, Indiana Jones is still Indiana Jones, etc. My favorite shows are shows like MASH or JAG, were the male character is largely capable of doing anything the plot requires of them. Still enjoy them.

Yeah, Mariner is frequently listed as the biggest detraction of the series, aside from if jokes don't land. She doesn't get a pass.

If we are talking about characters that can do more or less everything, may I introduce the board to Captains Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway (and arguably Archer although he seemed more flawed than the rest). Not sure if people have heard of a small sci fi series called Dr Who but the Doctor there is pretty perfect... this one is even more niche but I remember a guy, think he was Lewis (?) Skystroller - sounds right to me - who everyone loved up until he stopped being perfect.

Generally the lead character of these shows is a master of near as dammit all trades

 

[Death Ray]

That pretty much describes Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty so I reject the idea that a male Mariner would be hated.

But Rick IS a hateful character. That's where the humor comes in. And we actually do get surprisingly well-written glimpses of his soul where we find out he is lonely and broken. This plays off his cruelty and makes him complex. Mariner is not written nearly this well.

 

[Death Ray]

Yeah, Mariner is frequently listed as the biggest detraction of the series, aside from if jokes don't land. She doesn't get a pass.

Fine then. I am only explaining why she is the detractor she is.

 

[fireproof78]

If we are talking about characters that can do more or less everything, may I introduce the board to Captains Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway (and arguably Archer although he seemed more flawed than the rest). Not sure if people have heard of a small sci fi series called Dr Who but the Doctor there is pretty perfect... this one is even more niche but I remember a guy, think he was Lewis (?) Skystroller - sounds right to me - who everyone loved up until he stopped being perfect.

Generally the lead character of these shows is a master of near as dammit all trades

This is very true. Picard in particular, as well as Janeway, exemplified this main character trait. I never found Picard particularly relatable, though I hear some might.

Kirk and Sisko on the other hand-definitely relatable. And Mariner. And Burnham. And Lucas Daystroller or whatever his name was.

Fine then. I am only explaining why she is the detractor she is.

If she is a detractor. She isn't for all. Certainly not for me.

 

[Death Ray]

The textbook definition of a Mary Sue is a self insert character of the author with no flaws.

Who is she a self insert of? She also has tons of flaws.

The definition has grown. It now also means a character (typically a woman) who can do no wrong.

 

[Death Ray]

Speak for yourself please. I don't need someone to be vulnerable to be able to relate to them.

Indeed. A mangled word now that has lost it's original definition.

I would challenge you to name an endearing protagonist with no vulnerability at all.

Also, let's not lose the thread here. Lower Decks is a comedy. My principle objection to Mariner is that the way she is constructed, her personality harms the humor.

 

[Michael]

Isn't it more sexist to say that a woman CAN'T be a Mary Sue? And Rutherford is a sexual neuter with a whiny voice.

You misunderstood: This part of my post wasn't up for the debate here. I'm telling you as the moderator of this forum to stop using sexist language. You can dislike the character of Mariner all you want and I invite you to continue this discussion about her merits, but if you can't do it without using the kind of language I pointed out to you, it'll be a warning.

 

[fireproof78]

I would challenge you to name am endearing protagonist with no vulnerability at all.

Goal post move. You didn't say endearing. You said relatable.

Though, personally I find Riddick to be quite endearing.

The definition has grown. It now also means a character (typically a woman) who can do no wrong.

Mariner does wrong a lot and gets in trouble for it. So she already doesn't meet your definition.

 

[Weyoun 251]

This is very true. Picard in particular, as well as Janeway, exemplified this main character trait. I never found Picard particularly relatable, though I hear some might.

Kirk and Sisko on the other hand-definitely relatable. And Mariner. And Burnham. And Lucas Daystroller or whatever his name was.

If she is a detractor. She isn't for all. Certainly not for me.

If I was going for relatability I'd probably go Sisko, Janeway, Picard, Kirk but no one would call me a ladies man and I have a fine head of hair so Picard and Kirk were eliminated straight away!

Jack O'Neill (and even more so post season 4 Daniel Jackson - went from super nerd but useless in every other situation to sexy Dan Jackson who is also now a super spy, marksman etc.) and Sam Carter would qualify as being far too perfect.

With all the ones we have mentioned though they are relatable in their own ways - Sam Carter (as clunky as the dialogue is) has battled against institutional misogyny in the USAF. Jack has been through hell and keeps getting dragged back in, Colonel Mitchell got pulled through a wormhole and ended up on a ship, this living ship, with escaped convicts and I've lost track of how often that happens to me

 

[fireproof78]

If I was going for relatability I'd probably go Sisko, Janeway, Picard, Kirk but no one would call me a ladies man and I have a fine head of hair so Picard and Kirk were eliminated straight away!

Jack O'Neill (and even more so post season 4 Daniel Jackson - went from super nerd but useless in every other situation to sexy Dan Jackson who is also now a super spy, marksman etc.) and Sam Carter would qualify as being far too perfect.

With all the ones we have mentioned though they are relatable in their own ways - Sam Carter (as clunky as the dialogue is) has battled against institutional misogyny in the USAF. Jack has been through hell and keeps getting dragged back in, Colonel Mitchell got pulled through a wormhole and ended up on a ship, this living ship, with escaped convicts and I've lost track of how often that happens to me

I just got back from my last trip. But, yeah Daniel Jackson was not super relatable because he ended up marrying the first alien girl he meet. Never happens to me.

 

[Oddish]

In all fairness, people can be quick to slam their fist down on the Misogyny Panic Button. I once put up a post stating that in some ways, Chakotay would have been a better captain than Janeway was. I was immediately accused of hating women.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I just got back from my last trip. But, yeah Daniel Jackson was not super relatable because he ended up marrying the first alien girl he meet. Never happens to me.

Always the same damn excuse - an alien worm creature crawled up inside me and now I'm evil - wooooooo scary ghost voice

If they want to break up with me they should just say it!

 

[Weyoun 251]

In all fairness, people can be quick to slam their fist down on the Misogyny Panic Button. I once put up a post stating that in some ways, Chakotay would have been a better captain than Janeway was. I was immediately accused of hating women.

I haven't seen that one and from what I know of your posts I wouldn't think that if I saw you write it but with many of the posts they often lack substance/detail (in my opinion) and so read quite bluntly whereas if they were expanded on a bit and featured some self reflection/balance then I think they would be better rec'd

 

[Death Ray]

With your points, the key thing is that you are stating issues with the character but not expanding upon that to develop the point - add a bit of colour to your point and some detail and I think more will engage on the level you are hoping for as it will be clearer what the evidence behind the point is.

My basic point is this: Were the lead a male, Mariner would be written as a somewhat less pathetic version of Boimler. Regretfully, Mariner, as his sidekick, would probably be written as just as competent, but not as funny. This is also not an optimal premise.

Rather: Couldn't we have a Mariner who was not overcompensating? A comedy character whose best plans go amiss not because she's an awesome risk taker but because she THINKS she's awesome and makes dumb, funny mistakes because of this? That would be way more fun to watch.

Think of how strained the tension between Mariner and her mother is, from a comedy standpoint. The mother can't be ashamed of her daughter for being a half-assed officer, because she isn't, really. Instead, what should be a comedy relationship is over-dramatized because Mariner is an excellent officer who " just can't follow the rules, man!" --except the rules she breaks aren't that interesting.

What if Mariner was a REAL rule breaker-- smuggling contraband or taking shortcuts that lead to dangerous hijinks? This is where her being written as an inspirational character hamstrings the humor.

 

[Weyoun 251]

My basic point is this: Were the lead a male, Mariner would be written as a somewhat less pathetic version of Boimler. Regretfully, Mariner, as his sidekick, would probably be written as just as competent, but not as funny. This is also not an optimal premise.

Rather: Couldn't we have a Mariner who was not overcompensating? A comedy character whose best plans go amiss not because she's an awesome risk taker but because she THINKS she's awesome and makes dumb, funny mistakes because of this? That would be way more fun to watch.

Think of how strained the tension between Mariner and her mother is, from a comedy standpoint. The mother can't be ashamed of her daughter for being a half-assed officer, because she isn't, really. Instead, what should be a comedy relationship is over-dramatized because Mariner is an excellent officer who " just can't follow the rules, man!" --except the rules she breaks aren't that interesting.

What if Mariner was a REAL rule breaker-- smuggling contraband or taking shortcuts that lead to dangerous hijinks? This is where her being written as an inspirational character hamstrings the humor.

My point is that I get your statements but it isn't clear to me why you think that would happen.

I wonder if, because it is Trek, there is an expectation of a certain type of lead and because Mariner doesn't meet that there is disappointment?

I don't see her as an excellent officer - she reminds me of people I've worked with where they have moments of brilliance (either by chance or because that is their particular strength) which makes them believe they are shit hot at everything and then fail over and over because they have no concept of their actual level of ability.

This ends up with management being frustrated with them (see the relationship with her mum and Ransom) but the charisma from believing so strongly in themselves means that those around them think they are also boss at stuff and so they have their hangers on a la Boims etc

 

[fireproof78]

Mariner is an excellent officer who " just can't follow the rules, man!" --except the rules she breaks aren't that interesting.

So Mariner's greatest failure is that she just isn't that interesting and thus isn't funny? I feel this is more of an individual thing but since humor is so subjective I think this is a looking at a reason to explain why this isn't funny on a personal level. I think Mariner is hilarious. Perhaps I too am uninteresting? *philosophical stare*

I wonder if, because it is Trek, there is an expectation of a certain type of lead and because Mariner doesn't meet that there is disappointment?

I think this is the case. Mariner falls outside the acceptable box of parameters.

 

[Airmandan]

Mariner/Boimler is pretty much the Tom Paris/Harry Kim relationship. And the share a lot of the same characteristics and mannerisms. Don't try too think to much about this stuff, you'll have a happier life.

 

[fireproof78]

Don't try to think to much about this stuff, you'll have a happier life.

This should be your signature. I quite like it

 

[Death Ray]

My point is that I get your statements but it isn't clear to me why you think that would happen.

I wonder if, because it is Trek, there is an expectation of a certain type of lead and because Mariner doesn't meet that there is disappointment?

I think it is perfectly obvious that, absent the current trend in genre of making the female protagonist someone who can't be pushed around-- literally-- that we would have a character who could be dunked on more and be the butt of the joke more often.

I think this mistake in Mariner's character also stems from Lower Deck's principle flaw in not being a straight parody of Star Trek.