If Mariner was a man, we’d all hate her.

[Airmandan]

This should be your signature. I quite like it

It shall be done

 

[Death Ray]

So Mariner's greatest failure is that she just isn't that interesting and thus isn't funny? I feel this is more of an individual thing but since humor is so subjective I think this is a looking at a reason to explain why this isn't funny on a personal level. I think Mariner is hilarious. Perhaps I too am uninteresting? *philosophical stare*


I think this is the case. Mariner falls outside the acceptable box of parameters.

I think Mariner's flaw (for me) is that she's written like a hyper-capable dude bro. And I'll repeat my central thesis: I would find this very annoying in a male character. With Mariner and Boimler I am left wondering why they don't behave the way men and women actually behave, and yet their platonic relationship is also so grating?

Let me give you an example of where Star Trek trod on the norms of the male/female dynamic in a good way, and that would be the tension between Riker and Shelby. Although Riker is a tall, manly man, and Shelby is a short woman, there is never any question that in their world all that matters is competence, and toughness is only toughness of character. And so their rivalry never approaches a gender-based conflict.

But TNG is a light drama, and the society of TNG is a Utopia, which is why gender can be entirely ignored and still be credible. LD, however, is a COMEDY. It must, by definition, satirize reality. So when LD tries to have its cake and eat it too, heightening the masculinity of Mariner and pitting her against the nearly castrated Boimler while trying to pretend that no one ought to notice this, it is doing a disservice to the audience. You have to make the awkwardness of this dynamic funny and acknowledge how the show is inverting normal power relationships through the humor. I don't think Lower Decks is threading this needle.

 

[Death Ray]

Mariner/Boimler is pretty much the Tom Paris/Harry Kim relationship. And the share a lot of the same characteristics and mannerisms. Don't try too think to much about this stuff, you'll have a happier life.

If the characters were written well I wouldn't be thinking of it at all. Tom and Harry were actually friends. I don't think Mariner and Boimler share mutual respect. They really aren't written as "pals".

 

[Charles Phipps]

You mean she'd be a gung ho action hero who doesn't play by the rules and has a bad attitude?

You're right, no one would ever watch that sort of character!

 

[fireproof78]

I think Mariner's flaw (for me) is that she's written like a hyper-capable dude bro. And I'll repeat my central thesis: I would find this very annoying in a male character. With Mariner and Boimler I am left wondering why they don't behave the way men and women actually behave, and yet their platonic relationship is also so grating?

In comedies things are exaggerated for effect. So, of course they will not behave like women and men would behave. Mariner is overcompensating greatly for what happened to her, and Boimler has a dire need to prove himself and is becoming more confident. Whether they are annoying or not is a mileage will vary. I find Riker very annoying sometimes. Does that make him a Mary Sue?

You mean she'd be a gung ho action hero who doesn't play by the rules and has a bad attitude?

You're right, no one would ever watch that sort of character!

Don't you feel lucky though?

 

[Death Ray]

You mean she'd be a gung ho action hero who doesn't play by the rules and has a bad attitude?

You're right, no one would ever watch that sort of character!

But Dirty Harry isn't a COMEDY. A more proper comparison would be Sledgehammer.

 

[Airmandan]

If the characters were written well I wouldn't be thinking of it at all. Tom and Harry were actually friends. I don't think Mariner and Boimler share mutual respect. They really aren't written as "pals".

As they were first written and introduced, Tom and Harry were not friends. That had to develop over time and seasons.

As they were first written and introduced, Mariner and Boimler were not friends. But over the seasons, that has changed, much to Mariner's frustration. Rember, her biggest issue is trust, she has a hard time trusting other. So, she pushes people away so she can be a lone wolf. But over the last couple seasons, she's slowly starting to trust people and open herself to friendships and relationships. That's actual character growth.

 

[fireproof78]

So when LD tries to have its cake and eat it too, heightening the masculinity of Mariner and pitting her against the nearly castrated Boimler while trying to pretend that no one ought to notice this, it is doing a disservice to the audience. You have to make the awkwardness of this dynamic funny and acknowledge how the show is inverting normal power relationships through the humor.

Yes, it is inverting power dynamics through humor. And I laugh and sensibly chuckle from time to time. I don't find it awkward. So, unfortunately, again, these are broad stroke comparisons that are ignoring the actual growth and struggles of the characters in the name of generalized complaints.

And, I'll reiterate, I would not hate Mariner as a male.

As they were first written and introduced, Tom and Harry were not friends. That had to develop over time and seasons.

As they were first written and introduced, Mariner and Boimler were not friends. But over the seasons, that has changed, much to Mariner's frustration. Rember, her biggest issue is trust, she has a hard time trusting other. So, she pushes people away so she can be a lone wolf. But over the last couple seasons, she's slowly starting to trust people and open herself to friendships and relationships. That's actual character growth.

Indeed. Mariner has flaws, and insecurities and gets punishments. She has parents who get frustrated by her and crewmembers whom she irritates. She has a lot of growing to do and she is an enjoyable character both from her humor and growth.

 

[Airmandan]

And if you're so concerned, given the fact that it's an animated show, I'm sure at some point they'll run into a mirror universe where their genders are swapped. And for laughs and deep moral soul searching, Boimler will sleep with his female version.

 

[Oddish]

the characters were written well I wouldn't be thinking of it at all. Tom and Harry were actually friends. I don't think Mariner and Boimler share mutual respect. They really aren't written as "pals".

That's about right. Even though Tom tends to be the "leader" in the friendship and Harry the "follower", Tom has genuine admiration for Harry, and even strives to emulate him in some ways.

 

[Death Ray]

And, I'll reiterate, I would not hate Mariner as a male.

Let me ask you this (and with the caveat that the characters have improved their dynamic over the seasons), reflect on Season One, episode one: If the roles had been reversed, and Boimler had been ripping a hapless Mariner a new asshole, berating her, telling her to shut up because he knew everything and she knew nothing, wouldn't you have found that off-putting?

Now, keep Boimler the same and replace Mariner with a man, and then run the episode again. Wouldn't Male Mariner treating Boimler that way also have made him come off as a belittling a-hole?

Thus I return to my central thesis: Mariner gets to say and do things you wouldn't respect in a male character because she is a woman.

 

[Death Ray]

And for laughs and deep moral soul searching, Boimler will sleep with his female version.

See? THAT'S funny.

 

[Charles Phipps]

But Dirty Harry isn't a COMEDY. A more proper comparison would be Sledgehammer.

 

[fireproof78]

Let me ask you this (and with the caveat that the characters have improved their dynamic over the seasons), reflect on Season One, episode one: If the roles had been reversed, and Boimler had been ripping a hapless Mariner a new asshole, berating her, telling her to shut up because he knew everything and she knew nothing, wouldn't you have found that off-putting?

Now, keep Boimler the same and replace Mariner with a man, and then run the episode again. Wouldn't Male Mariner treating Boimler that way also have made him come off as a belittling a-hole?

Thus I return to my central thesis: Mariner gets to say and do things you wouldn't respect in a male character because she is a woman.

Mariner is an asshole. I've liked asshole males too. Hello, Stargate, Farscape, TNG, Invisible Man, among others.

Oh, and Dr. House. Becker. Sherlock.

 

[Takeru]

Let me ask you this (and with the caveat that the characters have improved their dynamic over the seasons), reflect on Season One, episode one: If the roles had been reversed, and Boimler had been ripping a hapless Mariner a new asshole, berating her, telling her to shut up because he knew everything and she knew nothing, wouldn't you have found that off-putting?

Now, keep Boimler the same and replace Mariner with a man, and then run the episode again. Wouldn't Male Mariner treating Boimler that way also have made him come off as a belittling a-hole?

Thus I return to my central thesis: Mariner gets to say and do things you wouldn't respect in a male character because she is a woman.

Male characters don the same things on other shows and are NOT hated. Rick & Morty, American Dad, South Park etc.

The entire premise of the thread is weird, male assholes in comedies are a dime dozen and they are not disliked. Mariner isn't getting a pass because she's a woman, in fact many people would probably like her more if she was a man.

 

[Kor]

... smuggling contraband ...

Well in the first episode she had that box of contraband including Romulan whiskey. And later in the Pakled episode it turned out that she had hidden contraband weapons throughout the ship, or something like that.

Edit to add: And later in season 2, running into Jennifer in the corridor while carrying a crate of contraband; looked like bottles of Romulan ale.

Kor

 

[Weyoun 251]

And if you're so concerned, given the fact that it's an animated show, I'm sure at some point they'll run into a mirror universe where their genders are swapped. And for laughs and deep moral soul searching, Boimler will sleep with his female version.

Red Dwarf fan?

 

[Death Ray]

Mariner is an asshole. I've liked asshole males too. Hello, Stargate, Farscape, TNG, Invisible Man, among others.

Oh, and Dr. House. Becker. Sherlock.

I was just now thinking about how the opening episode of LD mirrored the opening episode of Rick and Morty-- with the straight man being interrupted by the drunk lead--and here is where the distinction between a good and bad comedy premise crystalizes: Rick and Morty are a duo. Mariner and Boimler are not.

Both Rick and Mariner treat their straight men like shit, but Rick actually wants to engage with Morty. On LD, however, Mariner really doesn't want to have anything to do with Boimler.

And this is especially odd since it is clear that the two are a pair. Rutherford and Tendy are both B-storyliners. Their relationship to Mariner (the obvious lead) is like a pair of Banana Guards. That leaves Mariner and Boimler as the lynch pin for the comedic back and forth-- except the show works hard to prove that they really aren't a pair at all.

 

[fireproof78]

On LD, however, Mariner really doesn't want to have anything to do with Boimler.

This doesn't track from the first episode onward. This interpretation of Mariner, her relationships and character, is flawed.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I was just now thinking about how the opening episode of LD mirrored the opening episode of Rick and Morty-- with the straight man being interrupted by the drunk lead--and here is where I think the distinction a good and bad comedy premise really emerges: Rick and Morty are a duo. Mariner and Boimler are not.

Both Rick and Mariner treat their straight men like shit, but Rick actually wants to engage with Morty. On LD, however, Mariner really doesn't want to have anything to do with Boimler.

And this is especially odd since it is clear that the two are a pair. Rutherford and Tendy are both B-storyliners. Their relationship to Mariner (the obvious lead) is like a pair of Banana Guards. That leaves Mariner and Boimler as the lynch pin for the comedic back and forth-- except the show works hard to prove that they really aren't a pair at all.

It's a good observation to be fair and one I hadn't considered - definitely parallels between the two shows in how the opening goes.

I would, however, say that Mariner actually needs Boiler around for validation, like Rick does Morty with the difference being the stage of the relationship shown - this is early in the MB one whereas RM seemed more established.