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Unseen TOS....

The Earth's ships wouldn't be Daedalus? I was thinking the Romulans underestimated how good Starfleet vessels were; how far humans advanced in technological engineering and space strategy.
In 1966 Daedalus-class ships hadn’t been established yet although, of course, the concept existed as a sketch Matt Jefferies rejected when working toward a design for the Enterprise. The Deadalus wouldn’t be conceived until the production of TNG and DS9—well beyond the scope of this project.

That said the sketches of Matt Jefferies are definitely there during TOS’ production as a source to go back to if applicable. I’m just very wary of getting near anything used post TOS.


My take is Romulan spaceship tech of the era is not as advanced as Earth’s. However the Romulans managed to get from Vulcan to their new homeworlds they appear to have let spaceflight technology languish and never bothered to develop it further, until the war. A remark by the Romulan Commander in “Balance Of Terror” suggests the Romulans were still active in space after the war, but the BoP itself indicates the Romulans still haven’t advanced near as far as the Earth/Federation.

Although the reasons behind this are really beyond the scope of this project it could be that even though the Romulans have a militaristic veneer to their society it could be that a good chunk of them doesn’t support much in the way of military investment and provoking conflict with anyone too far beyond their corner of space. They seem to like sticking close to home.

The Centurion in “Balance Of Terror” referenced “a hundred campaigns together” to the Commander. Was he referring (and maybe exaggerating?) to conflicts with other races we know nothing of or conflicts of Romulans fighting amongst themselves?
 
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Another consideration in ship design and technology is that Romulans have at least twice the lifespan that of Humans. The Romulans might be slower to innovate because the old generation kept to tradition. They made up for this with first-hand experience though.
 
Although played by the same actor the Romulan commander comes across as younger than Sarek, who could have been born around the time of the war a century earlier.

The Centurion could have been around Sarek’s age unless Romulan ships expose them to certain levels of radiation which might induce accelerated aging.
 
The Romulan history and culture might keep their political system in such high flux so to cause an unstable government and keep their militaries fighting among themselves. After their defeat in the Earth-Romulan War , I see the Romulans devolve into infighting and political chaos supporting the claim "a hundred campaigns together". It took a hundred years for the Romulan political system to finally stabilize then rebuild, and what we see in TOS Balance of Terror is the end result where one faction as some level of control over the government. I also believe the Romulan military may have focused on close range, stealth hit-and-run tactics but under estimated the requirements of interstellar space flight. Where can the Romulans turn to close the warp speed gap in their ships? In any event, the net result would mean that Starfleet would have to ramp up space assets to the Romulan Neutral Zone.

With the Romulans causing a distraction on one front, did the Klingons surmise that this would be a good time to ramp up their aggressions on the Federation leading up to the events in Errand of Mercy? Does the Organian Peace Treaty herald in the flooding of the Romulan Empire with Klingon ships as seen in The Enterprise Incident?
 
This is some of your best work to date with unseen TOS. :techman:

I don't remember if ship size or scale was mentioned, but based on the window/deck spacing with perhaps a smaller size for both as compared to the Enterprise, the size of the ship appears to be about the size of the secondary hull of the Enterprise (~340 feet length?). Have you a size in mind?
 
Yeah, you really have nailed the TOS look. Will you make this available through the 3DWarehouse? I'm looking for badies for my Pre-TOS ships to fight ;-)
 
As a fan we have the luxury of time and the luxury to...overthink things. We have the luxury of hindsight and indulging in trying to tie all the data points together into a (hopefully) cohesive and consistent narrative. We don't have to wing it because we're pressed for time.

As such a lot of solutions we might come up with to fill in the blanks of a decades old creative work can likely be tainted by bias, influences, perspectives and societal and technological changes that didn't exist when the original work was made.

In my view most everything done post TOS that seeks to address the pre TOS eras is tainted by influences, perspectives and expections that simply didn't exist when TOS was being produced. All sorts of things are assumed because we are exposed to things that couldn't have been known originally. Consequently most post TOS ideas about pre the TOS backstory usually don't ring true because they're coloured by a fifty year difference in perspectives and expectations.

Succinctly it's largely why I call bullshit on pretty much anything I've seen from later Trek regarding the pre TOS eras, particularly from ENT, JJtrek, DISC and SNW. But it also includes whatever TNG, DS9 and VOY have offered up on the pre TOS eras.

Believe me, I, too, still find myself falling into this trap. I often find myself considering influences I soon realize didn't exist back in the day. It's a helluva thing trying to be somewhat authentic with a work thats fifty years out of date.


When I was trying to envision a design for the Valiant only mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" I was also trying to ignore the fact that "Metamorphosis," "Balance Of Terror," "Space Seed" and the later accepted idea that TOS was supposedly set in the mid 23rd century did not yet exist. Everything about Star Trek, except for what was in the two pilot episodes, was a completely blank slate. it should go without saying the original creators would most likely come up with quite different solutions than those working decades later.

The backstory of the Romulans has been respectably worked out by others in novels and much of it hangs together reasonably well. And a lot of that work was done before TNG and the rest came along. The finer points and details can be debated, but the essential backstory does seem to work well enough with what little is offered up in TOS, particularly "Ba;ance Of Terror," "Amok Time," "The Savage Curtain" and "All Our Yesterdays."

Some thousands of years ago Vulcans were highly emotional and even warlike. Essentially they were very human like and perhaps moreso. After several cataclysmic events a faction of Vulcans, led by Surak, sought to reform Vulcan nature and Vulcan society in order to stave off eventual self-destruction of the race. It appears a minority of Vulcans continued to resist the reformations. Eventually they chose, or were forced, to leave the planet as Vulcan's level of technology was sufficient to allow for a mass off-planet migration. This means ancient Vulcan possesed at least rudimentary interstellar spaceflight capability, several centuries before Earth.

TOS was not about exploring Federation territory. It was about encountering what lay beyond Federation territory. As such if there were Vulcan colony worlds we never saw them or even heard any reference to them. That doesn't mean there weren't any, but we never heard of any. But given Sarek's disapproval of Spock joining Starfleet and T'Pau's somewhat veiled disapproval of "outworlders" it's just possible Vulcans weren't much given to venturing far beyond their own local space. They might well have engaged in some level of interstellar exploration, but mass colonization off planet might not have been of much interest. And to that end their level of spaceflight technology doesn't appear to have progressed much farther than Earth's late 21st to early 22nd century level of spaceflight technology.

The Romulans are an exception. Driven by not wanting to reject their inherent nature and ways they left Vulcan to forge their own way on some distant world or risk perishing in the endeavour. Suffice to say they were never heard from again and the Vulcans never learned the fate of their migrating cousins.

Until the Earth/Romulan War. Despite Spock's assertion that neither side ever saw the other it's impossible to accept that neither side ever had an opportunity to salvage and study damaged enemy ships and inevitable human and Romulan bodies. At best we can accept the notion the Romulans refused to allow any form of visual communications--it was apparently all strictly audio. In the end Earth authorities asserted they had no idea what the Romulans looked like, but it's most assuredly a false assertion they chose to perpetuate for whatever unknown reason.

We can deduce from Spock's remarks the Romulans of the mid 22n century were no more advanced than Earth in spaceflight capability and possibly even less so, at least early on in the war. That means if the Romulans were indeed the long lost migration of ancient Vulcans then they didn't advance their spaceflight capability much beyond what they had several centuries previously. It means the Romulans were much like their Vulcan cousins in not developing their spaceflight technology much over several centuries and stuck close to home.

From that I'm inclined to think the Romulans had the equivalent of Earth's late 21st century starflight capability when humans first encountered them. The Romulans were clearly at a disadvantage, by several decades, at least in terms of stardrive propulsion. But it stands to reason if the Romulans managed to salvage damaged Earth ships they should have caught up reasonably quickly.

Or maybe not. Because in "Balance Of Teroor" the indication seems to be they still haven't advanced much except perhaps in weaponry, and even that doesn't prove to be all it's played up to be because of limited range. This suggests an arrogant and rather stunted mindset.

Given their technological advantage I suspect Earth itself was never in any serious danger from the Romulans, much like North America was reasonably safe from Germany and Japan during World War 2. Earth was simply too far away for the Romulans to strike at directly. It might also be that Earth, with its allies (if any) possesed a superior industrial base and infrastructure. Earth with its faster and longer range ships could simply take the fight to the Romulans who were left mostly hemmed into their local neighbourhood. On the other hand the Romulans would have had a shorter supply line being so close to home.

Why the war started is anyone's guess. A popular notion, and it makes sense, is that Earth ships inadverdently encroached into Romulan space and the Romulans took offence with these univited vistors. Subsequently later Earth ships start disappearing in that same region of space. Things escalate from there and the war is on.


If Romulan spaceflight capability (during the war's early years) is no more or little advanced than Earth's late 21st century level then what could that look like? It could look somewhat like Earth's, but with an alien sensibility to it. Thats going to be a challenge. I used the Atlas rocket as a starting point. along with Matt Jefferies' early ringship idea for the Enterprise, to develop the Valiant. Maybe I could use a Vostok rocket as a starting point for an early Romulan ship.
 
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I think I'm done. Small note: the windows are actually oval shaped.



Oh, and for those interested.
- Length = 526.388 ft. or 160.443 m.
- Width = 350.015 ft. or 106.685 m.
- Height = 82.353 ft. or 25.101 m.


On to the next idea, but gotta do some sketching first.
Great design. Amazing work as always!
:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Nuts.

Sitting here thinking I’ve just imagined three preceding classes or generations of ships prior to the design I modelled above.

*Sigh* You know I just have to explore them…
You know ya wanna! ;)

If you DO go ahead with this concept, as before, looking forward to seeing what you you come up with.
:) :) :) :)
 
If you DO go ahead with this concept, as before, looking forward to seeing what you you come up with.
:) :) :) :)
In a way I would be going way beyond the initial intent of this project. Even if Matt Jefferies or Wah Chang ever did envision century old Earth and Romulan combat ships I seriously doubt they would be thinking up multiple classes.

I doubt they were as obsessive as me. And they likely wouldn’t have had my kind of time.


Okay, so allow me to ruminate...

In "Balance Of Terror" it's suggested the Romulans might be an offshoot of Vulcans. This idea, of course, would be cemented two seasons later in "The Enterprise incident."

Even if we accept that asseruion in 1966 what we don't know is...
- how long ago the two peoples split.
- how did the Romulans come to be where they are, and how far did they get from Vulcan?
- is the name Romulan actually their name for themselves or just a name those of Earth and the Federation call them? And could the name actually be an old Vulcan word? Yes, I know Diane Duane gave them the very cool sounding name Rihannsu, but that was many years after TOS ended production and something nowhere near on the radar in 1966.
- how long did the conflict last?

In the mid 1960s the understanding of what interstellar travel could entail wasn't much different than what is known today. The learned understood that interstellar distances were truly vast and that conventional chemical propulion systems were totally inadequate for the purpose. Hence the fictional invention of warp drive (an idea that predates Star Trek by some decades). Another idea that existed (and was later seen in "For The World Is Hollow And I have Touched The Sky" was the idea of generation ships--massive vessels that could take ceturies to reach their destination while successive generations lived out their lives aboard the ship in deep space and never seeing their point of departure or their intended new home. Another idea that was known then was that of suspended animation, wherein the crew or passengers hibernated during the entire flight to be awakened upon arrival to their intended destination. And finally there was the idea of fast relativistic travel, where a ship travelling close to light would still take many years or decades to reach its target, but the crew experience the voyage in a much shorter span of time.

The problem with a generation ship is that it has to be self-sustaining for multiple generations of inhabitants over a greatly protracted period of time. And there are inherent societal challenges as well--keeping the passengers mindful of and committed to the purpose of their voyage.

A sleeper ship, as later depicted in "Space Seed," sidesteps the problems of a generation ship. You only need to keep a much smaller group of people alive in hibernation during the voyage. From the perspective of the 1960s this strikes me as a very plausible solution for a mass migration off planet assuming you don't possess any faster-than-light capability. And even if you do have some form of FTL then a sleeper ship still could be part of the solution unless your FTL can transport you at multiple times (likely hundreds) the speed of light.

A fast relativistic ship (.8c or better) is a final option that has a measure of appeal. It might not be the greatest thing if you intended a round trip wherein decades to centuries have passed when you return home. But it could be more than ideal for a planned one-way trip. This idea was explored in Poul Anderson's novel Tau Zero.

So lets assume sometime in the distant past--perhaps 1000-2000 years--a faction of Vulcans leave their home planet to establish themselves elsewhere. A generation ship would be a massive engineering, infrastructural and financial undertaking. Would those remaining behind really be that supportive of bearing the cost for such a thing? It's reasonable to assume the risks involved and the odds of success would be considered at length--is it worth it?

The other two options appear far more favourable and more likely. The question now becomes whether large numbers of people can be kept alive in hibernation for what could be decades to centuries of flight. However, if you combine a sleeper ship with a fast relativistic drive then you have to keep the passengers alive only for a much shorter period of time due to relativistic time dilation. And with a species as long lived as Vulcans some of those aboard might even be awake through parts or much of the voyage.

The final component of a mass migration is the destination. You want to improve your chances of success as much as you can. So you try to figure out the most likely targets that might have a world you can colonize. You might consider multiple targets to investigate during the voyage, but you're still going to want to minimize periods of deceleration and stopovers.

It's also possible the ancient Vulcans managed some limited form of FTL. The flight still took years, but it made the mass migration even more manageable.

However the ancient Vulcans, or Romulans, managed to leave Vulcan the indications are they didn't bother advancing their starflight capability much more after they reached their final destination. When the war with Earth begins the Romulans are no more advanced than we are and possibly even a bit less advanced.

For me that points to a ship type or design not wholly dissimilar from what Earth developed in the latter part of the 21st century. The Romulans possess a limited form of FTL, but they are outclassed, at least in terms of propulsion, by the mid 22nd century Earth ships by several decades. But the Romulans could enjoy an advantage of being relatively near home with a much shorter supply line to sustain their campaign.

Stay tuned...
 
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I share many of your points on both TOS spaceship development and Earth/Vulcan/Romulan Histories. The main differences between TOS and the real world was that in TOS, space flight technology developed exponentially from the mid-1960's. Firstly, chemical powered rocket space flight was quickly abandoned in favor of atomic powered rockets and sleeper ships. Earth's third and last world war (the Eugenics War) ended in 1996 with the use of nuclear weapons in central Asia. After the war, there seems to be a long period of manned space exploration with the discovery of impulse drive (circa 2018) and then warp drive (circa 2060). (Maybe we reverse engineered that UFO alien technology we found in the 1940's or on the moon. ;)) Early matter-antimatter power may or may not have started around or was the requirement for warp drive is unknown. Uber regenerative matter-antimatter power should only be a recent development of the last 30-50 years for the Federation and not at all for the Romulans. YMMV :vulcan: & :rommie:.
 
Interesting ruminations from both @Warped9 and @Henoch !!

@Henoch

I think I remember the 2018 date for impulse drive mentioned in one episode ("Space Seed", because it rendered sleeper ships obsolete?). So are you basing the invention of warp drive about 2060 on Kirks' line in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", about the 'old impulse drives' couldn't handle the magnetic storm?
 
Interesting ruminations from both @Warped9 and @Henoch !!

@Henoch

I think I remember the 2018 date for impulse drive mentioned in one episode ("Space Seed", because it rendered sleeper ships obsolete?). So are you basing the invention of warp drive about 2060 on Kirks' line in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", about the 'old impulse drives' couldn't handle the magnetic storm?

Hmm, some interesting scenarios:
1. If TOS takes place around 2260 then if Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri discovered space warp when he was in his 30s (missing 150 years at age 87) then that would be around 2060. Earth-ship SS Valiant was lost for more than 200 years then they would not have a warp drive and only "old impulse engines".
2. If TOS takes place around 2160 then if Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri discovered space warp when he was in his 30s (missing 150 years at age 87) then that would be around 1960. Pre-2018 Earth-ship SS Valiant might have been a sleeper ship with "old impulse engines" that still required suspended animation whereas "new impulse engines" were more like low speed warp engines. Earth makes contact with Alpha Centuri between 2000-2100 and gains warp technology.

All IMHO :)
 
In WNMHGB there are references to both “more than two centuries” and “almost two centuries.” So I wouldn’t put much stock in it being exactly 200 years.

And recall that there is no year given in WNMHGB, only that it takes place about 200 years after the Valiant disappeared.

I went over this quite a bit upthread when working on the Valiant’s design.
 
Rough idea for an earlier Romulan warship. Instead of using a complete ring around the ship we could have two segments of a ring. And instead of painting an elaborate bird on the hull (which such a design doesn’t really lend itself to, structural details might suggest something avian.

 
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