Spoilers She-Hulk: Attorney at Law discussion thread

[JirinPanthosa]

We only have one episode of She-Hulk so I can't comment there--but Captain Marvel was depowered throughout the movie until she regained her memories at the end; Jane was dying; Kamala was struggling with just being a teenager and learning how to control her powers. Sounds to me like you are making this up to prove whatever point you want to make--and I'm not sure I like your agenda.

I'm guessing you're absolutely assuming my "Agenda" on "It doesn't absolutely agree with mine so it must be absolutely the other" logic.

My agenda is to have three dimensional characters whose dialog sounds like natural things human beings would say, as opposed to being forced and on the nose.

Someone disagrees with you about a female character. That makes them a bro right? Couldn't possibly be making a very specific criticism about a particular style of writing that leads to really forced sounding dialog.

I said their personalities were similar not identical, obviously they all come from different specifics and different circumstances.

Just because environmentalism is a good cause doesn't mean Force of Nature is a good episode of TNG. It's the same with my criticism of the way these particular characters are written and it's pretty obnoxious of you to jump to the conclusion I'm attacking the politics instead of the writing.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

What personality traits do Jennifer Walters, Ms. Marvel, and Jane Foster have in common? And that’s just the three latest installments, so it's not like I'm cherrypicking.

I was thinking more of Kate Bishop. I have't seen Love and Thunder, I'm referring to the shows. Plucky defiant go-getters who either idolize or have existing relationships with superheroes then dismiss their advice with a snide remark.

It does NOT apply to Sylvie, who I thought was a great character.

 

[Booji]

 

[theenglish]

With She-Hulk having her own series (essentially her own movie as a headliner), adding her to the (still unlikely) first Banner/Hulk sequel is the equivalent of a Captain America-level character (headliner) was the guest star in The Dark World, and it automatically takes the focus from the subject of the sequel.

I agree with your sentiment, but a very similar project is already happening with The Marvels. I would suggest that we wait and see how that turns out--although I am hesitant about the Marvels and worried that it will end up being a disaster.

 

[theenglish]

I'm guessing you're absolutely assuming my "Agenda" on "It doesn't absolutely agree with mine so it must be absolutely the other" logic.

My agenda is to have three dimensional characters whose dialog sounds like natural things human beings would say, as opposed to being forced and on the nose.

It is your choice of words and how you expressed yourself that comes across as the code that a lot of people use to obscure the true meaning. When you use phrases like "mary sue" or "doing it subtractively by taking away vulnerability" or referring to "older helpless female characters" when we literally have dozens of women from the comics on screen and kicking butt (see Endgame)-- these are all phrases that come across as expressions that are hiding a purpose. It is as if you are saying you are an ally and are all for strong women as long as they still conform to traditional roles/traits. It is no different than saying "all lives matter" or calling for new comic book characters of colour rather than changing ethnicity or gender to better reflect the real world.

Then you have this gem: "They can have agency and be strong and still have the same flaws and vulnerabilities as any three dimensional character".

If I am wrong, prove it. Why don't you provide actually examples of male characters and their vulnerabilities side by side with specific female characters and what vulnerabilities they are missing or you feel they should have?

 

[STEPhon IT]

I watched the first episode of She-Hulk and found it was just...whatever. Not the best thing produced for the MCU (obviously), but not the worst, either. Above all else, Ruffalo sounded like he was reading instead of acting--just saying what was in front of him--completely unnatural. At this moment, it would be difficult to imagine how this character-specific format will merge into future productions, and I would have preferred an adaptation of the original, 1979 version where the stakes were higher and there was a degree of pathos shadowing her (e.g., a trap set for Walters ultimately killed Jill Stevens--her best friend--in issue #2, etc.), but it was not to be.

This was so much worse than I ever thought was possible.

Spoiler: Events happened in the pilot

So apparently while driving along with Banner, an alien spaceship appears on the middle of the road causing a car crash in which Jennifer gets a cut in her arm and then when she’s trying to get a much larger man out of the car, she ends up getting some of his blood in her system and boom she-Hulk powers. So right off the bat, at this point, probably 7 mins into the show I already had problems with it and so many questions. 1. Why didn’t Banner immediately turn into the Hulk when the car crashed because we’ve seen pretty consistently established anything like THAT happens Banner insta-changes in the Hulk, but he doesn’t here.

I’m guessing the show wanted Jennifer to, I guess, pull Bruce a man twice her size out of the car and save him, not the other way around??? Because when the car crashes and Bruce is trapped in the car he’s pretty much a human and it doesn’t make sense. 2nd problem with the scene once Jennifer drags Bruce out of the car he goes, “No I’m bleeding stay away from me and you know obviously his blood ended up getting into her blood stream because I guess we know now that Hulk powers transmits very much like AIDS… the scene happens very quickly… I have questions…

Spoiler: events from the episode

Now, in her She Hulk form, Jennifer kinda just runs away from the crash, she leaves Bruce - she’s gone, and once she finally returns to her human form she finds a bar and grill and goes in I guess to clean herself up and try to call Bruce to get her. And this was where I knew, if it weren’t already apparent already in this crap, the show was going to have a very anti-male, feminist bent.

Spoiler: from the show

Now because she’s just been in a car crash, and experienced her 1st episode, Jennifer was obviously, somewhat, disheveled and in the bathroom of this place a bunch of other women find her and they immediately start assuming the reason she looks like this is because of domestic violence??? What is a person's life experience when they see someone looking a little rough, a little disheveled the 1st response is “Oh—Boyfriend must be slapping you around…” that was just weird to me and also this is a Disney show I… I don’t know… the tone of this was all over the place. So anyway these women helped clean Jennifer up and she waiting for Bruce outside… these men comes by and of course we are in a “MEN BAD” universe within this show immediately uh they start harassing her. Just for good effect, it had to the Black man being the lead.

Spoiler: More events

And once more, all of this was happening within 10 minutes of the show starting… so what also makes all of these like little nitpicks or jabs against men all the more apparent is they’re happening in such rapid succession. So these dudes outside of the bar and grill are being super date rapey which eventually triggers the HULK but before she could literally kill these guys, which would’ve been the intent, who up until now was just talking to her - Bruce saved their lives.

Jennifer now waking up to Bruce’s hideaway, secret lab, Bruce explains to her she’s now a monster, and had to break it to her, “Probably can’t live a normal life because you’re gonna have all these powers that you can’t control, so it’s not safe for you to be around regular people in the everyday world.”

If this was a better written show, a more serious IMO compelling show, the next couple of episodes would deal with her trying to come to terms with the fact that her life has changed.

That she has these powers, she can’t get rid of and her trying to learn how to control them but ultimately failing and realizing she needs to rely on Bruce’s help since he has the experience in order to guide her through this process because he’s been dealing with this for years at this point and she just been thrown into this crazy world and she needs help. If I was a writer on this show that is how I would’ve tackled this, but from what I'd seen the Disney people were like, "OH NO screw any of that character development and that growth which could’ve happened, instead what if Jennifer were just automatically super good at being a Hulk and already waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better and more powerful and more in control than Bruce Banner ever could be? "

LOL!

Because yeah, that’s what happens. Right from the get go Jennifer already more in control of herself while she’s She Hulk. And not only does she have more control over her Hulk-self than Bruce does but she’s also of course - like - stronger than him too because… why not??? Literally this entire episode is just a middle finger to Bruce Banner, all of the struggles that he’s gone through, coming to terms with being the Hulk and being able to control his powers. The fact that Jennifer manages to do all of it so easy and faster and better than Bruce does. It’s a middle finger to his entire character and story arc. Jennifer is a Mary Sue, and what’s cringier and heavy handed is the fact they, the showrunners, actually pretty much explicitly say the reason why Jennifer has more control over her powers than Bruce is because she's a woman who’s had to deal with sexism. So I guess Jennifer/ She Hulk’s real power is just being a woman. And I HATE IT.

With all the heavy handed political messaging in this show, which I know you’ve picked up on it which is the reason I’m responding to you TREK_GOD_1, is not geared towards me because I am not on board with having to prop women characters up by bringing men characters down.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why are you hiding spoilers in a spoiler thread?

 

[YLu]

I was thinking more of Kate Bishop. I have't seen Love and Thunder, I'm referring to the shows. Plucky defiant go-getters who either idolize or have existing relationships with superheroes then dismiss their advice with a snide remark.

It does NOT apply to Sylvie, who I thought was a great character.

So “every” is two characters?

(One defined by her desire to be a superhero, the other by her complete refusal to do so.)

 

[Greylock Crescent]

1. Why didn’t Banner immediately turn into the Hulk when the car crashed because we’ve seen pretty consistently established anything like THAT happens Banner insta-changes in the Hulk, but he doesn’t here.

He had the inhibitor thingy on his arm. Please do keep up.

Also, initially, my issue with the episode was the uncanny valley of the CGI. But the other thing is that the episode doesn't really set up many stakes for the lead to overcome. I do like that she can control her anger better than Bruce because of how society imposes that necessity on women (excellent commentary, that). But I also felt that there needed to be some challenge she needs to overcome clearly established in the episode. Maybe it'll be revealed in the next, or maybe it's that she really hasn't learned to reconcile her new powers with her identity. But not having that conflict set up just yet is the biggest drawback for me so far.

Otherwise, the performance of the lead was great. The premise looks fun. I'm more than interested in seeing where it goes from here.

 

[Awesome Possum]

So apparently while driving along with Banner, an alien spaceship appears on the middle of the road causing a car crash in which Jennifer gets a cut in her arm and then when she’s trying to get a much larger man out of the car, she ends up getting some of his blood in her system and boom she-Hulk powers. So right off the bat, at this point, probably 7 mins into the show I already had problems with it and so many questions. 1. Why didn’t Banner immediately turn into the Hulk when the car crashed because we’ve seen pretty consistently established anything like THAT happens Banner insta-changes in the Hulk, but he doesn’t here.

I’m guessing the show wanted Jennifer to, I guess, pull Bruce a man twice her size out of the car and save him, not the other way around??? Because when the car crashes and Bruce is trapped in the car he’s pretty much a human and it doesn’t make sense. 2nd problem with the scene once Jennifer drags Bruce out of the car he goes, “No I’m bleeding stay away from me and you know obviously his blood ended up getting into her blood stream because I guess we know now that Hulk powers transmits very much like AIDS… the scene happens very quickly… I have questions…

Banner had the inhibiter device on him that kept him in his human form in order to heal his arm, something explained in the episode. It was also damaged and he was starting to turn when Jenn first started to hulk out.

Also Banner's radiated blood quickly causing a transformation is well established by The Incredible Hulk movie. Banner transformed immediately after getting dosed and the Leader began changing after being exposed to Banner's blood. But I'm pretty sure that if it had been delayed you would complain that it didn't happen immediately.

Now, in her She Hulk form, Jennifer kinda just runs away from the crash, she leaves Bruce - she’s gone, and once she finally returns to her human form she finds a bar and grill and goes in I guess to clean herself up and try to call Bruce to get her. And this was where I knew, if it weren’t already apparent already in this crap, the show was going to have a very anti-male, feminist bent.

If you say so. But if it's being anti-male, it's doing a terrible job by having the character with the second most screen time being a positive male character who is supportive of his cousin and trying to help her adapt to her powers.

The hero of the show is fighting bad people, clearly it's an attack on all men and not just creeps.

Now because she’s just been in a car crash, and experienced her 1st episode, Jennifer was obviously, somewhat, disheveled and in the bathroom of this place a bunch of other women find her and they immediately start assuming the reason she looks like this is because of domestic violence??? What is a person's life experience when they see someone looking a little rough, a little disheveled the 1st response is “Oh—Boyfriend must be slapping you around…” that was just weird to me and also this is a Disney show I… I don’t know… the tone of this was all over the place. So anyway these women helped clean Jennifer up and she waiting for Bruce outside… these men comes by and of course we are in a “MEN BAD” universe within this show immediately uh they start harassing her. Just for good effect, it had to the Black man being the lead.

I take it you don't believe that sexism is real and women don't face physical abuse and harassment on a daily basis.

Aren't you a woman? You've never seen another woman being supportive of a woman who is clearly distressed and appears to be harmed? It's played for comedy in the show, but this is a very real thing. Also women do get catcalled by men, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Depicting some men as bad people isn't an attack on men. Is having Red Skull being a man an attack on men? Thanos is a man too, is this an attack on men?

Or are you really upset that being a creep is depicted as bad?

 

[Skipper]

Just the opposite: good producers are never "all-in" yes-men/yes-women, but are not afraid to challenge the bad tendencies of directors and even studio heads at the risk of their own positions.

Have you read his "opinions"? He even missed key points of the plot. I'm all in for a dissenting voice, but I want that s/he at least knows of what s/he is taking of.

 

[Tuskin38]

Have you read his "opinions"? He even missed key points of the plot. I'm all in for a dissenting voice, but I want that s/he at least knows of what s/he is taking of.

You can just say 'they'.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

They are all three women, aren't they? This makes them identical. In fact, the only way to tell them apart is by hair color.

This is a blatantly misogynistic comment. Sharing gender makes one identical in all ways except hair color.

Repulsive.

 

[Reverend]

I laughed at Bruce saying they don't get a choice in the names. That's the writers, after all. Maybe, the gamma radiation gives them varying degrees of awareness that there is something beyond the fourth wall.

I think it's a safe assumption he's just referring to how the press/general public end up choosing the names. 'Ms. Marvel' and 'Spider-Man' seem to be rare exceptions. Hell, even Carol didn't choose her made-up name; that was mostly Nick's doing.

This is a blatantly misogynistic comment. Sharing gender makes one identical in all ways except hair color.

Repulsive.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm. Context and whatnot.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This is a blatantly misogynistic comment. Sharing gender makes one identical in all ways except hair color.

Repulsive.

Pretty sure he was countering a previous poster who claimed all the female leads were interchangeable.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I was thinking more of Kate Bishop. I have't seen Love and Thunder, I'm referring to the shows. Plucky defiant go-getters who either idolize or have existing relationships with superheroes then dismiss their advice with a snide remark.

It does NOT apply to Sylvie, who I thought was a great character.

So characters who make funny comments? Like every single character in the MCU?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This is a spoiler thread, so the spoiler tags are unnecessary.

Why didn’t Banner immediately turn into the Hulk when the car crashed because we’ve seen pretty consistently established anything like THAT happens Banner insta-changes in the Hulk, but he doesn’t here.

Bruce was wearing a machine he'd designed that prevented him from turning into the Hulk. He said so in the car.

once Jennifer drags Bruce out of the car he goes, “No I’m bleeding stay away from me and you know obviously his blood ended up getting into her blood stream because I guess we know now that Hulk powers transmits very much like AIDS

Actually, it sounded to me like Bruce's blood gave Jennifer a lethal dose of gamma radiation, and the rare genetic factors she shares with Bruce were responsible for "synthesizing" the gamma radiation into Hulk powers. So, no, not at all like the transmission of HIV.

There's also been discussion upthread of how quickly Stern was shown to have reacted to Banner's blood in The Incredible Hulk (2008).

 

[STEPhon IT]

Banner had the inhibiter device on him that kept him in his human form in order to heal his arm, something explained in the episode. It was also damaged and he was starting to turn when Jenn first started to hulk out.

Also Banner's radiated blood quickly causing a transformation is well established by The Incredible Hulk movie. Banner transformed immediately after getting dosed and the Leader began changing after being exposed to Banner's blood. But I'm pretty sure that if it had been delayed you would complain that it didn't happen immediately.


If you say so. But if it's being anti-male, it's doing a terrible job by having the character with the second most screen time being a positive male character who is supportive of his cousin and trying to help her adapt to her powers.

The hero of the show is fighting bad people, clearly it's an attack on all men and not just creeps.

I take it you don't believe that sexism is real and women don't face physical abuse and harassment on a daily basis.

Aren't you a woman? You've never seen another woman being supportive of a woman who is clearly distressed and appears to be harmed? It's played for comedy in the show, but this is a very real thing. Also women do get catcalled by men, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Depicting some men as bad people isn't an attack on men. Is having Red Skull being a man an attack on men? Thanos is a man too, is this an attack on men?

Or are you really upset that being a creep is depicted as bad?

If that's the reality you live in, I feel sorry for you and if you believe men are depicted accurately in this episode. Would this be acceptable if women were depicted in a negative light like prostitution or spreading STD to men while contrast all of the male protagonists were seen in a good light? Even if its in a comedy? Because maybe you never experienced but it is a very real thing. The episode weak, and it depicts a generalization of men that fits an agenda. GOOD FOR US when it depicts a gender being inferior and monstrous while our genetic superiority presents a sense of fool-harded ego and paranoia. God, I hope you don't present that crap of a show to your son.

 

[theenglish]

GOOD FOR US when it depicts a gender being inferior and monstrous while our genetic superiority presents a sense of fool-harded ego and paranoia.

That is quite the overreaction. We must have seen two very different shows.

 

[YLu]

in a negative light like prostitution

Holy shit, there's a lot going on here.