Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x06 - "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach"

[jackoverfull]

But I thought for years they were feeding Vaal fruit too. Then on a rewatch several years ago, I noticed that they were feeding Vaal the explosive rocks Spock discovered.

Wow, fantastic detail, I never noticed that.

Yeah, it's nice to discover that they made a little effort - but come on, those rocks are lying around all over the place, and the designers thought it was a good idea to make their Krell Device dependent on their simple descendants collecting and shoveling the rocks every couple of days, forever?

Elon Musk was involved here, somehow.

well, whoever designed that society had his mental issues, no doubt. Still, it makes sense: the humanoids are just a cog in the machine of Vaal, as is the whole planet. In fact no doubt there had to be a process that formed those rocks, also controlled by Vaal.

In fact what should worry more the upcoming federation squad isn’t teaching the natives to build a society: they should worry about the likely ecological collapse of an environment that has been computer-controlled for thousands of years!

 

[cooleddie74]

"I think you got to his sweet tooth, Doctor."

"Better than where I got to during his last checkup."

"That'll be enough, Bones."

 

[Oddish]

Maybe we should change the title in this topic, lol.

 

[Ovation]

Maybe we should change the title in this topic, lol.

By page 35, any change would be pointless.

 

[cooleddie74]

Much like life. If it's not changed by the time you reach 35 you might as well give up.

 

[Sci]

....

And left these people to indefinite slavery to a machine.

The galaxy is full of planets where people live in slavery. That is a problem for their culture to solve, not Kirk.

Kirk made a field decision.

Yes. A bad one.

He reasoned that the civilization was dead and not thriving at all.

Except it wasn't "dead." The people were alive. He just didn't approve of the way in which their society was functioning.

 

[Mudd]

Like the man said, "Screw General Order One."

 

[jackoverfull]

The galaxy is full of planets where people live in slavery. That is a problem for their culture to solve, not Kirk.

what culture? They had no art, no philosophy, no politics, no nothing that defines a culture. They had been stagnating to serve Vaal for thousands of years. That wasn’t a society, it was a piece of a machine.

 

[Sci]

what culture? They had no art, no philosophy, no politics, no nothing that defines a culture.

A culture is a collection of people who work together to meet their needs. The fact that these aliens didn't do this in a manner of which Kirk approves does not make them not a culture.

 

[jackoverfull]

They weren’t working together to meet their needs: they were working for a machine to meet its needs.

 

[Sci]

They weren’t working together to meet their needs

If that were true, they would all be dead because they wouldn't be eating food, drinking water, or producing waste.

They were alive. They were working together to meet their needs. They were doing so in a way you and Kirk don't approve of. None of that means Kirk or the Federation had any right to overthrow their society and force their culture to change.

 

[cooleddie74]

Note to self: Don't mention "The Apple" in this thread anymore.

 

[Mudd]

They were alive. They were working together to meet their needs.

Using this as a working definition of a functioning society explains a great deal about your reasoning.

Anyway, they don't work together on their own behalf at all. They exist to service a God machine; the only labor they perform is to feed it.

They are maintained alive completely at the option of that same machine, which they depend upon for every need, and which requires slaves to maintain its existence. It can continue to do so, or dispose of any member of the group, at its whim.

 

[Sci]

Using this a working definition of a functioning society explains a great deal.

I mean, that's literally what it is -- functioning.

Is it a good society? I wouldn't say so. Would I want to live there? No. But just like there are plenty of societies on Earth today that the United States has no right to forcibly change just because we don't approve of their culture, the Federation has no right to overthrow Vaalian society just because they don't approve of their culture.

That's what the Prime Directive is all about: Recognizing that alien cultures who cannot threaten the Federation have right to be themselves, according to their own internal processes and politics, without interference from the Federation. Even if the Federation thinks their culture is dead wrong, the Federation has no right to force them to change. That's what sovereignty means.

 

[Ovation]

I mean, that's literally what it is -- functioning.

Is it a good society? I wouldn't say so. Would I want to live there? No. But just like there are plenty of societies on Earth today that the United States has no right to forcibly change just because we don't approve of their culture, the Federation has no right to overthrow Vaalian society just because they don't approve of their culture.

That's what the Prime Directive is all about: Recognizing that alien cultures who cannot threaten the Federation have right to be themselves, according to their own internal processes and politics, without interference from the Federation. Even if the Federation thinks their culture is dead wrong, the Federation has no right to force them to change. That's what sovereignty means.

The logical end to this kind of reasoning would irrevocably exclude interventions to stop genocides. That is an unacceptable position.

 

[fireproof78]

The logical end to this kind of reasoning would irrevocably exclude interventions to stop genocides. That is an unacceptable position.

And yet it was Gene's Vision

 

[jackoverfull]

If that were true, they would all be dead because they wouldn't be eating food, drinking water, or producing waste.

sure they were, just like cattle eat food, drink water and produce waste: they served Vaal’s needs and Vaal assured they remained in working conditions.

By the way, am I right to assume you hold similar views about Landru’s subjects? THAT computer even allowed a true society with a certain level of free will.

 

[Sci]

By the way, am I right to assume you hold similar views about Landru’s subjects? THAT computer even allowed a true society with a certain level of free will.

If they're not a threat to the Federation, then the Federation should leave them the fuck alone. Deciding you know what's best for another culture is just imperialism.

 

[jackoverfull]

Well, they *were* a threat to the enterprise. Still, for Vaal, I’d hardly call it a culture.

 

[TRON JA307020]

If they're not a threat to the Federation, then the Federation should leave them the fuck alone. Deciding you know what's best for another culture is just imperialism.

They were feeding a machine exploding rocks. Kirk intervened. He explained why he did it. He was never court-martialed so starfleet agreed. Nuff said.