Spoilers What is the connection between Doctor Soong and Khan Singh?

[fireproof78]

So how would YOU explain the difference, then?

TWOK, for example, says 1996. If that's no longer true...then how much ELSE in the film isn't?

Hopefully all of it, as it is a film that has long overstayed it's welcome.

Honestly, I wouldn't. Accepting inconsistencies is pretty much par for the course in my Trek life. Even studying history has taught me that. If pressed, I would say that people got dates wrong. Which, believe it or not, happens to people.

 

[Tuskin38]

So how would YOU explain the discrepancy, then?

It’s a retcon, not a decanonzing.

Like James R. Kirk, Kirk and Spocks various unknown family members, Picard’s backstory in Season 2

 

[dupersuper]

The way I see it, the upside of me ignoring what some producer says, is that "Space Seed" and TWOK don't need to be decanonized. Funny old world, ain't it?

Changing one random date Spock says hardly decanonizes Space Seed and TWOK.

So how would YOU explain the discrepancy, then?

TWOK, for example, says 1996. If that's no longer true...then how much ELSE in the film isn't?

What's to explain? Spock (in Space Seed, not TWOK) says 20 something instead of 1996. Boom, done.

 

[Dukhat]

It’s a retcon, not a decanonzing.

If you have to retcon a bunch of things to make your story fit into the larger universe, then perhaps you should have just made your story a reboot rather than shoehorning it into the past continuity.

What's to explain? Spock (in Space Seed, not TWOK) says 20 something instead of 1996. Boom, done.

Except that’s not what he said. That’s just your personal head-canon changing things. Unless you’re suggesting that someone should go back and redub Nimoy’s line with a sound-alike, and then start selling TOS DVDs and BluRays with this new line of dialogue.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s a retcon, not a decanonzing.

Like James R. Kirk, Kirk and Spocks various unknown family members, Picard’s backstory in Season 2

And people are allowed to retcon anything. Warp speed leaps immediately to mind.

 

[Tuskin38]

Except that’s not what he said. That’s just your personal head-canon changing things. Unless you’re suggesting that someone should go back and redub Nimoy’s line with a sound-alike, and then start selling TOS DVDs and BluRays with this new line of dialogue.

The Tombstone still says James R. Kirk in the remaster even though we know that not to be true.
This is the same thing.

 

[fireproof78]

The Tombstone still says James R. Kirk in the remaster even though we know that not to be true.
This is the same thing.

I'm sure that doesn't count. Gary was obviously trolling his friend.

 

[Dukhat]

The Tombstone still says James R. Kirk in the remaster even though we know that not to be true.
This is the same thing.

No, it’s not quite the same thing. James R. Kirk is from a pilot episode. Many things change from a pilot to the actual series. The date for Khan’s disappearance was established in an episode proper and a feature film. And it’s really moot anyway as the file Soong pulls out of his desk also has the 1996 date on it. It’s not an Easter egg if it corroborates both of those previous instances.

 

[dupersuper]

If you have to retcon a bunch of things to make your story fit

What "bunch of stuff"? It's one random date spat out in some exposition in a script written by people who had no earthly reason to suspect the show they were working on would keep going for over 5 decades.

Except that’s not what he said.

And James T Kirk wasn't what was on the tombstone Gary Mitchell made...

That’s just your personal head-canon

And that of the current producers...

No, it’s not quite the same thing. James R. Kirk is from a pilot episode. Many things change from a pilot to the actual series. The date for Khan’s disappearance was established in an episode proper

Oh, brother. Ok, how about the proper episode The Squire of Gothos that establishes TOS is set in, what, the 26th century?

 

[Dukhat]

What "bunch of stuff"? It's one random date spat out in some exposition in a script written by people who had no earthly reason to suspect the show they were working on would keep going for over 5 decades.

I wasn't referring to that. As a matter of fact, I wasn't referring to anything having to do with PIC, as that show hasn't retconned anything other than the hologram of the Discoprise in season 1.

And James T Kirk wasn't what was on the tombstone Gary Mitchell made...

I made that clear about the pilot episode.

And that of the current producers...

The current producers are going to dub over Spock's line in Space Seed about the 1996 date?

Ok, how about the proper episode The Squire of Gothos that establishes TOS is set in, what, the 26th century?

It establishes no such thing. Where in TSOG does anyone say the show takes place in the 26th century?

 

[fireproof78]

It establishes no such thing. Where in TSOG does anyone say the show takes place in the 26th century?

I believe they are referring to this dialog:
JAEGER: Notice the period, Captain. Nine hundred light years from Earth. It's what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough.
TRELANE: Ah, yes. I've been looking in on the doings on your lively little Earth.
KIRK: Then you've been looking in on the doings nine hundred years past.
TRELANE: Oh, really? Have I made an error in time? How fallible of me. Oh, I did so want to make you feel at home. I'm quite proud of the detail.

Doing brief math it would put the date in the 2700s.

 

[Dukhat]

I believe they are referring to this dialog:
JAEGER: Notice the period, Captain. Nine hundred light years from Earth. It's what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough.
TRELANE: Ah, yes. I've been looking in on the doings on your lively little Earth.
KIRK: Then you've been looking in on the doings nine hundred years past.
TRELANE: Oh, really? Have I made an error in time? How fallible of me. Oh, I did so want to make you feel at home. I'm quite proud of the detail.

Doing brief math it would put the date in the 2700s.

I’m aware of the dialogue. However, none of that is concrete proof of when the show takes place.

 

[fireproof78]

I’m aware of the dialogue. However, none of that is concrete proof of when the show takes place.

It depends on your own point of view I suppose. Unless Jaeger was just making stuff up.

 

[Dukhat]

It's not that I think Jaeger was making stuff up. It's that that particular scriptwriter might have made an assumption about when the show takes place that was never officially approved of. That's not a retcon, that's just a snafu from that particular episode. And again, it's not like anyone actually made a clear comment that the year was 2700, or that after TSOG everyone assumed the show took place in that year. Unlike Space Seed, where Spock gives a specific date for Khan's disappearance, which was then followed up on in TWOK.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not that I think Jaeger was making stuff up. It's that that particular scriptwriter might have made an assumption about when the show takes place that was never officially approved of. That's not a retcon, that's just a snafu from that particular episode. And again, it's not like anyone actually made a clear comment that the year was 2700, or that after TSOG everyone assumed the show took place in that year. Unlike Space Seed, where Spock gives a specific date for Khan's disappearance, which was then followed up on in TWOK.

Ok, so we have dates that are inaccurate.

I guess this is one data point that means more to others than it does to me.

 

[Dukhat]

Ok, so we have dates that are inaccurate.

Or at best, very unclear.

I guess this is one data point that means more to others than it does to me.

I didn’t bring up TSOG.

 

[fireproof78]

Or at best, very unclear.



I didn’t bring up TSOG.

Then it matters more to others not you or me.

Regardless, to me it is mutable. To others, it is not. This falls under "James R. Kirk" level of mutable. And, yes, I know, that has been addressed. But, that's me and my point of view of "hard facts" in fiction.

 

[Dukhat]

Then it matters more to others not you or me.

Regardless, to me it is mutable. To others, it is not. This falls under "James R. Kirk" level of mutable. And, yes, I know, that has been addressed. But, that's me and my point of view of "hard facts" in fiction.

And that’s the great thing about fiction. I can choose to believe whatever I want, because it’s all fake. And I can equally choose to ignore other people who try to tell me how I should think.

 

[fireproof78]

And that’s the great thing about fiction. I can choose to believe whatever I want, because it’s all fake. And I can equally choose to ignore other people who try to tell me how I should think.

Yup. And none it ultimately matters in regards to the production teams.

 

[Dukhat]

Yup. And none it ultimately matters in regards to the production teams.

I never said that my personal opinion matters to them. They declare their show to be in the same universe as TOS. I disagree and believe it to be a reboot, because I trust my own eyes more than what a CBS PR person says. CBS doesn’t give a crap about my opinion, and I don’t give a crap about theirs.