Spoilers Moon Knight discussion

[Saul]

Great episode again. Fresh each time. Scary and trippy.

 

[Starkers]

Again an episode where I wasn't really feeling it (not sure why) and to be honest I was at risk of zoning out...and then we got to the end! WTF! That definitely woke me up. I have no idea what's going on now Having Marc and Steven actually meet face to face was a nice touch, and having Steven explain to Layla just why Marc left her was also a nice moment.

the hippo "hi" and double Oscar Isaac scream was hilarious.

 

[Reverend]

I mean I'm assuming they're either in their own mind or on the astral plain (where Steven Strange goes to read at night.) So in this place, they are separate people and their reality is shattered and fused together. I wouldn't be shocked if the third super-violent personality is both the "original" and the one that was once a patient in a mental hospital.

 

[Commander Troi]

I'm really digging this show!

I knew Oscar was a good actor, but I had no idea he was *this* good! I'm glad to hear from those of you in the UK that Steven's accent is legit.

I Layla. She's smart, tough, and funny.

i loved the notion that every egyptian god had his/her own Avatar, that was a nice touch and expansion of the mythology.

I want to watch that again! I love mythology, but don't know more than the basics (and what was on Stargate SG-1) of Egypt's.

I found an article on who was at the council (https://www.slashfilm.com/831472/a-guide-to-the-council-of-gods-on-moon-knight-whos-who/) but it only names 5 of the 7. Did anyone catch the other 2 names?

It all rather hinges on your definition of "god" though, doesn't it? In the paganist sense, a god is not all powerful or all knowing (that's more of a monotheistic thing), they're just WAY more powerful than mortals. Remember that a lot of these concepts came from a time where to world was a vast and chaotic place and the only way to impose some sense on all of it was to anthropomorphosis natural forces, because if they're just people ("gods") then suddenly the world becomes easier to relate to and comprehend all the random and weird shit that can happen to a bunch of hunter-gatherers out in the wild. This stuff predates what we generally think of as religion, it comes more from the realm of folklore and myth, which can be broadly summed up as "making up stories to make sense of the world".

Indeed in many mythologies the line between mortal and god gets very blurry, what with mortal heroes being apotheosized alongside the gods, Zeus shagging anything that moves and producing a litany of demi-god offspring (hell even the Hebrew Bible mentions nephilim!), gods dying, reproducing, or just popping out of thin air.

Nicely put! My only quibble is with you differentiating between religion and folklore/myth. Those are also in the eye of the beholder.

The MCU "grounded" the Asgardians as merely highly advanced aliens rather than literal gods because, at the time, the MCU was still very new and the expectation was that everything had to be "grounded" or audiences wouldn't accept it.

I tend to think they made them aliens to avoid boycotts and hysteria from certain segments of the population.

Taweret is a possibility.

As I recall, one of the items in the gift shop in the first episode was a stuffed Taweret (which I WANT!)

Having Marc and Steven actually meet face to face was a nice touch, and having Steven explain to Layla just why Marc left her was also a nice moment.

the hippo "hi" and double Oscar Isaac scream was hilarious.

So much awesome!

When they said Ammit's last avatar was Macedonian, I assumed Ptolemy, but he was one of Alexander's generals (as well as Cleopatra's father), so I'll let it pass.

My guesses are that:

• Marc & Steven are in the "waiting room" of the afterlife and/or Ammit/Harrow is messing with his head.
• Unlike some cases of DID where the alters are completely separate, Steven is the part of Marc that's highly intelligent, curious, communicative, and emotional. Since DID is usually brought about from child abuse, Steven is everything Marc was told not to be.
• In writing the above, I'm reminded that Taweret is not only a protector of children, but also "cleansed and purified the dead so they could pass safely into the afterlife."

 

[Reverend]

Nicely put! My only quibble is with you differentiating between religion and folklore/myth. Those are also in the eye of the beholder.

Eh. Potato/Tomato.
I guess in this context when I say "religion" I'm talking about the organised variety, with orthodoxy, heresy, priests & priestesses, denominational schisms, casual genocide, and all that various fun stuff that actually has nothing to do with any particular gods or even beliefs, and more to do with very human social power dynamics.*

Though all of the above does tend to grow from (or absorbs) a foundation of shared (or imposed) folklore and myth; said proto-religious frameworks tend to be more colloquial and freeform. It's why there's really no such thing as a definitive canon for any given folklore, just a vague overlapping set of ideas, tropes and many many contradictory stories.

* Side note: A Discworld book touches on this concept, where a religion gets so dogmatic and inward focused that it's god (who's existence is sustained by belief) essentially dies from starvation, dwindling to a nonsensical voice declaring ears, crop rotation, cheese, and the colour blue "abominations unto Nuggan" because all the followers gradually stopped believing in him and instead believed in the mere idea of him as represented by the church.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Eh. Potato/Tomato.
I guess in this context when I say "religion" I'm talking about the organised variety, with orthodoxy, heresy, priests & priestesses, denominational schisms, casual genocide, and all that various fun stuff that actually has nothing to do with any particular gods or even beliefs, and more to do with very human social power dynamics.* ...

I totally agree with you, but just as a different point of view...

I remember as a small child looking out the kitchen window and seeing a lightning bolt strike our driveway, and the immense thunder accompanying it. I remember the first time my father took me to the shore of Lake Superior during a storm and watching the waves crashing the shore and feeling terrified. I remember later times I stood at the shore of the Atlantic and felt the same. I remember as a teenager walking along a concession road on my way home late at night after an evening with my friends in town, in dead silence, no human lights, a full moon providing near daylight but as though the world was bathed in silver. I remember the first time I entered Adrienne.

It doesn't surprise me that our ancestors saw the hand of the gods in all those things. I kind of still do.

 

[Reverend]

I totally agree with you, but just as a different point of view...

I remember as a small child looking out the kitchen window and seeing a lightning bolt strike our driveway, and the immense thunder accompanying it. I remember the first time my father took me to the shore of Lake Superior during a storm and watching the waves crashing the shore and feeling terrified. I remember later times I stood at the shore of the Atlantic and felt the same. I remember as a teenager walking along a concession road on my way home late at night after an evening with my friends in town, in dead silence, no human lights, a full moon providing near daylight but as though the world was bathed in silver. I remember the first time I entered Adrienne.

It doesn't surprise me that our ancestors saw the hand of the gods in all those things. I kind of still do.

As an atheist, I've often had religious types say to me (somewhat passive aggressively) "so, you don't believe in anything bigger than yourself?"
My first thought to that was "what the hell does size have to do with anything?", the second being "have you seen the universe? Everything is bigger than us, depending on how you define it.", and of course the fourth being "your perception defines your reality, so the question itself is meaningless."

It's entirely possible to acknowledge and be aware of vast forces beyond my control or even understanding (because most of them are), without feeling the need to pray at them to change their minds . . . mostly because they don't have them, and that even if they did, why pay attention to the mostly carbon three dimensional primates that thought digital watches were a good idea?

In my experience religion breaks down into two broad categories in how people relate to it; the "this is what I believe therefore I don't actually have to think about anything overmuch" mindset which I broadly refer to as "faith". And the social aspect where everyone is happy so long as everyone agrees that they believe the same thing (and occasionally gather to compare clothing.)
It also leans into the vague need most people have for social hierarchies that's kinda been baked into our psychology (thanks evolution!) Most people are only comfortable so long as they know *someone* is in charge. Some people need that someone to be "them", and others need that someone to be the person they can best manipulate. So it all circles back to wanting to feel in control of the universe around us when really, we don't. Religious types get very funny when you tell them that religion is just a self imposed delusion made to stave off madness (even if it can itself become a sort of high functioning madness), but honestly, so is society. Civilization is a story we told ourselves in order to make it real, and being made up doesn't make it any less real because as I said back at the beginning; "our perception defines our reality."

 

[Commander Troi]

We should move this to the religion thread. Good discussion!

Eh. Potato/Tomato.
I guess in this context when I say "religion" I'm talking about the organised variety, with orthodoxy, heresy, priests & priestesses, denominational schisms, casual genocide, and all that various fun stuff that actually has nothing to do with any particular gods or even beliefs, and more to do with very human social power dynamics.*

Though all of the above does tend to grow from (or absorbs) a foundation of shared (or imposed) folklore and myth; said proto-religious frameworks tend to be more colloquial and freeform. It's why there's really no such thing as a definitive canon for any given folklore, just a vague overlapping set of ideas, tropes and many many contradictory stories.

* Side note: A Discworld book touches on this concept, where a religion gets so dogmatic and inward focused that it's god (who's existence is sustained by belief) essentially dies from starvation, dwindling to a nonsensical voice declaring ears, crop rotation, cheese, and the colour blue "abominations unto Nuggan" because all the followers gradually stopped believing in him and instead believed in the mere idea of him as represented by the church.

Thanks for clarifying! I've read Small Gods too and it's got so much awesome. I also find Hogfather worth reading (and re-reading) on this issue.

I totally agree with you, but just as a different point of view...

I remember as a small child looking out the kitchen window and seeing a lightning bolt strike our driveway, and the immense thunder accompanying it. I remember the first time my father took me to the shore of Lake Superior during a storm and watching the waves crashing the shore and feeling terrified. I remember later times I stood at the shore of the Atlantic and felt the same. I remember as a teenager walking along a concession road on my way home late at night after an evening with my friends in town, in dead silence, no human lights, a full moon providing near daylight but as though the world was bathed in silver. I remember the first time I entered Adrienne.

It doesn't surprise me that our ancestors saw the hand of the gods in all those things. I kind of still do.

Amen brother! Even as a wee Catholic girl, I found God more in the forest.

As an atheist, I've often had religious types say to me (somewhat passive aggressively) "so, you don't believe in anything bigger than yourself?"
My first thought to that was "what the hell does size have to do with anything?", the second being "have you seen the universe? Everything is bigger than us, depending on how you define it.", and of course the fourth being "your perception defines your reality, so the question itself is meaningless."

It's entirely possible to acknowledge and be aware of vast forces beyond my control or even understanding (because most of them are), without feeling the need to pray at them to change their minds . . . mostly because they don't have them, and that even if they did, why pay attention to the mostly carbon three dimensional primates that thought digital watches were a good idea?

In my experience religion breaks down into two broad categories in how people relate to it; the "this is what I believe therefore I don't actually have to think about anything overmuch" mindset which I broadly refer to as "faith". And the social aspect where everyone is happy so long as everyone agrees that they believe the same thing (and occasionally gather to compare clothing.)
It also leans into the vague need most people have for social hierarchies that's kinda been baked into our psychology (thanks evolution!) Most people are only comfortable so long as they know *someone* is in charge. Some people need that someone to be "them", and others need that someone to be the person they can best manipulate. So it all circles back to wanting to feel in control of the universe around us when really, we don't. Religious types get very funny when you tell them that religion is just a self imposed delusion made to stave off madness (even if it can itself become a sort of high functioning madness), but honestly, so is society. Civilization is a story we told ourselves in order to make it real, and being made up doesn't make it any less real because as I said back at the beginning; "our perception defines our reality."

Oh, I *really* want to talk more about this, but I don't want to hijack the thread any further.

 

[Reverend]

Thanks for clarifying! I've read Small Gods too and it's got so much awesome. I also find Hogfather worth reading (and re-reading) on this issue.

I was actually referring to 'Monstrous Regiment', but yeah it's broadly similar Om's whole deal. (It's just an aside to the main plot and not a spoiler, in case you haven't gotten to that one yet.)

Oh, I *really* want to talk more about this, but I don't want to hijack the thread any further.

Yeah I kind of went off on a tangent. Mostly just killing time until the next episode of 'Pigeon Skull Man and Friends' drops. . .

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Oh, I *really* want to talk more about this, but I don't want to hijack the thread any further.

I'm shocked my thread got more than one reply LOL. Hijack away.

This all reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes routine about "verbing words." From way back in 1993: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25

Ha! My subconscious must have remembered and gave me a poke, or poked me, or whatever.

As for "bake" and "boil" being used as nouns as brought up earlier, "clam bake" as a noun for the traditional New England food preparation and accompanying event...

"I watched the clam bake." Hmmm... No ambiguity there.

ETA: This was supposed to go into my "Ask as a noun" thread. Must have had two windows open, and then some lax scrutiny on my part.

 

[Commander Troi]

'Pigeon Skull Man and Friends'

I admit wondering what the hell bird that's supposed to be! Wikipedia says:

He is sometimes shown wearing an eagle or falcon's head like Horus, with whom he is associated as a protector and healer, adorned with the sun disk and crescent moon.
​

The head looks completely wrong for a falcon though. Perhaps an ibis, since Thoth doesn't seem to be around?

FYI, did anyone else notice the name DuChamp on Marc's phone?

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Well. That was certainly an episode of streaming TV.

First off, I'm very impressed with Oscar Isaac playing two very different personalities with the same body. Equally impressed with Ethan Hawke being practically unrecognizable visually, and yet presenting the same manipulative personality from behind another façade. The acting, writing, and directing here was superb.

As far as the story goes, this series can't possibly be intended as a one-off. This story is about Marc Spector. The series has done an amazing job of it, but it has to move on to something else. That said, the exploration here of the trauma leading to another personality was very well done. I had been thinking the past couple of weeks that Steven couldn't actually be real, or some mystical construct; Marc had an actual history whereas Steven seemed to have nothing behind him. The interesting thing this week was that Steven must have been there most of Marc's life.

This is (I believe) the penultimate episode. The resolution wont be just about the Gods, it'll be the resolution of Marc's life. I expect the resolution won't be completely tidy.

 

[Romulan_spy]

As far as the story goes, this series can't possibly be intended as a one-off.

Disney submitted Moonknight to the Emmy's in the limited series category. So that would suggest it is a one-off. Moonknight could show in other MCU shows or movies. But somehow next week's episode will wrap up the story they want to tell here. I think this series will tell a complete story of Marc coming to terms with his multiple personality disorder and embracing his Moonknight persona. We already saw the first part. Stephen discovers his multiple personality disorder and in this episode, Marc comes to terms with his childhood trauma and no longer needs the Stephen personality (as we see Stephen turn to stone). My guess is the finale will see Marc somehow return from the afterlife and rescue Konshu and fully become Moonknight and take on Ammuet and Harold.

 

[thribs]

Interesting they had the mother being the abuser. It’s usually the father

 

[marillion]

While I'm having a bit of trouble following everything in the show, the hippo was delightfully fun!

 

[Noname Given]

I'm watching, but overall, its just not really engaging me. If this is the current Marvel Moon Knight, he's just not my cup of tea as it were. It's not bad by any stretch, but its just not grabbing me.

If current Moon Knight fans are enjoying it, that's great.

 

[Saul]

Probably the best episode of the series so far. Oscar Isaac needs to win all the awards for his performance. The writing and direction of the episode was great.
As I said in previous marvel show threads, what makes them stand above other comic book TV series is how the main character is dealing with some type of trauma in each one. This episode didn't have any Moon Knight in it but it was incredibly engaging. Rather than having a chat over coffee to sort someone's problems out (like in a CW show) they really explore what the main character is going through from their perspective. When they first started talking about doing Marvel TV shows this must have been one of their mission statements.

 

[FPAlpha]

Probably the best episode of the series so far. Oscar Isaac needs to win all the awards for his performance. The writing and direction of the episode was great.
As I said in previous marvel show threads, what makes them stand above other comic book TV series is how the main character is dealing with some type of trauma in each one. This episode didn't have any Moon Knight in it but it was incredibly engaging. Rather than having a chat over coffee to sort someone's problems out (like in a CW show) they really explore what the main character is going through from their perspective. When they first started talking about doing Marvel TV shows this must have been one of their mission statements.

Nothing much to add here, my sentiments exactly.

This is what the MCU needs - time to fully explore characters and giving them the opportunity to do so without being drowned in the larger story and huge CGI battles ( which i like for what they are). Can Marvel really have it all? Bombastic blockbuster cinema and engaging stories on a personal level that explore various aspects of a character?

 

[kirk55555]

What a horrendous episode. I HATE mental institution storylines, whether its supposed to be in a real place (like the fucking awful Legion) or all in the person's head (like in TNG's horrible Frame of Mind and DS9's shitty Shadows and Symbols). Adding in the Egyptian afterlife stuff didn't help the episode much, although at least the story was halfway coherent.

Apparently the next episode is the last, which is great. This show to me feels like Falcon & Winter Soldier, where I like the main character(s) but think the villain is shit and the writing generally terrible. I'd be happy to see Moon Knight pop up in other things, and I'm betting the Egyptian gods will probably get at least a mention in either Thor 4 or something like that, but overall I'd say this has been the second worst of the MCU shows, after F&WS (which "wins" the title of worst because its main villain, the woman whose name I can't remember, is just a bit worse and more forgettable then Ethan Hawke's character).

 

[JD]

Taweret is a possibility.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret

I must have over looked her, but she seems like a much better possibility.

And you were right.
Wow, this was the best episode of the series yet, and one of the best of any the MCU shows so far. It was a fantastic deep dive into Marc's history and trauma. Oscar Isaac delivered one hell of an award worth performance, but sadly since this is a comic book superhero/fantasy show, he probably won't get any.
It was nice to get the origin stories for Steven and Mook Knight both.
The afterlife stuff was pretty cool.
It was also nice to finally find out why Steven was only leaving voice messages for his mom.
I thought the unbalanced scale was going to be because of the third personality, and we'd finally get the big reveal, so I was a little surprised when that didn't happen.
The end was definitely a surprise, and I'm very curious to see how they're going to tie things up next week.